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One of the best Videos I've seen on Ballistic Gel Testing

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by Chuck R., Apr 13, 2019.

  1. Chuck R.

    Chuck R. Member

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    Goes a long ways to explain why gel testing works and why SD caliber once you reach a certain threshold doesn't matter:

     
  2. JR24

    JR24 Member

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    Yeah, nothing new to me and certainly validates my line of thinking that sufficient penetration with good expansion is all that's worth worrying about.

    Too bad they didnt ask those guys about them new screwdriver solids, might be interesting to hear if Federal has experimented with them at all.
     
  3. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    There are countless excellent videos on Lucky Gunner.
     
  4. Mark 40

    Mark 40 Member

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    Agreed....seems they often have something interesting, informative and thought provoking.
     
  5. earlthegoat2

    earlthegoat2 Member

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    I am endlessly impressed by the Lucky Gunner channel.

    That is really saying something considering I am not impressed by much.
     
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  6. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

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    That’s an excellent video. This should be a sticky in the general handgun forum.
     
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  7. Kendahl

    Kendahl Member

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    Several years ago, ShootingTheBull410 made many YouTube videos of gel tests on .380 and 9 mm self defense ammunition. I believe he is active again.

    He made the argument that expansion is good but penetration is vital. Therefore, with a weak caliber like .380 which doesn't have enough energy for both, you should forego expansion to preserve penetration.
     
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  8. John_R

    John_R Member

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    Great info. Good to know, real bad wounds start at 2200 fps.
     
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  9. JONWILL

    JONWILL Member

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    Agree. Shot placement and penetration are the 2 most important things. If the round expands I consider that a bonus.
     
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  10. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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    Just waiting for all of the .45 acp folks to trade theirs in for .380's. Sorry, I don't buy it that caliber doesn't matter. Thanks for the video tho.
     
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  11. tipoc

    tipoc Member

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    This is a useful video to watch and learn from. Particularly on the role of 10 and 20% ballistic gelatin in the development of ammo. The representatives from Federal explain this well and clearly. They also explain why the FBI set parameters on ammo for their self defense use and the value of this and the ability to reliably build ammo that meets those parameters.

    When discussing wounding effect and difference between the shear capability of a rifle bullet and a handgun bullet they explain very well the shear threshold of 2200 fps and what happens to flesh above that threshold.

    But they are also off base on something. One of the reps from Federal makes the case when discussing wounding capabilities of handgun bullets that there is no difference between the wounds and wounding potential between a 180 gr. bullet from a 40 S&W at 950 fps. and a 244 gr. bullet from a 44 Magnum at 1400 fps. We know that this is not accurate. We know, for example, that the 44 Magnum round discussed has the greater potential to break bone, to mention only one thing.

    Seems to me the source of the error goes to the belief that the temporary wound cavity has no meaning and that the momentum of the bullet has no effect. It is true beyond a doubt that it is the permanent wound cavity that is the only thing that can be counted on to stop an aggressor. The temporary wound cavity with defensive handgun bullets produces a stretch cavity that varies from 3-5" in all directions surrounding the bullets path. Now, that hurts. It's true that you can't count on that to produce a stop. It will also vary from one individual to another. But damage is produced. Human tissue does not simply spring back, no harm no foul, in all persons and all ages in all parts and locations of the body.

    So they have a narrow focus. It is that it's the hole in the body that matters and where we place it that alone counts. Whether it's a 9mm 124 gr. bullet at 1200 fps (a good bullet) or a 44 Mag with a 244 gr. pill at 1400 fps (a bit much for self defense), the hole and the effect on the person will be the same. It's all the same. You think that, you're bucking a couple of centuries of handgunning knowledge.
     
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  12. IdaD

    IdaD Member

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    It's a really good video, and I agree that most people overestimate the difference between handgun calibers. With handguns you're basically just poking holes so it really does boil down to expansion and penetration. Take HST as an example - 45 expanded about 0.2" more but penetrated about 4" less than a 9mm in the Lucky Gunner tests. Which is better? Debatable I guess, but from a practical real world standpoint there's probably no real difference in terminal performance. Other factors then take over - cost, ability to shoot accurately/fast, capacity, gun size, etc.
     
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  13. Dewey 68

    Dewey 68 Member

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    This might come in to play when using a handgun for hunting, but doesn't the ballistics gel take this into account when the bullets are used against humans?
     
  14. tipoc

    tipoc Member

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    Well we can look at the video and see what they say. Think about it. We can do some studying as well. If I go by what the gentleman said, my opinion is he's off base. Judge for yourself.

    My own opinion is my own and I'm no expert.
     
  15. IdaD

    IdaD Member

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    I think their point is even a 44 mag is going too slow to cause the effect you get with a round going over 2200 fps. So it'll make a bigger hole than 40, but it won't really amount to much more damage just because it's a heavier projectile going a little faster (but not enough faster to matter). In some situations I could certainly see it being more effective, such as animal defense or hunting where you've got more massive bone structures to deal with or need additional penetration that you would get from a heavy hardcast bullet.

    I'm a hunter and have seen first hand how much damage a variety of high velocity rifle calibers can cause on big game and it can be pretty dramatic and extend far beyond the bullet path. I really do think a lot of people seriously underestimate the difference between handgun and rifle performance. My most powerful rifle is a 300 Weatherby and with some loads it can stay above that 2200 fps threshold out to and a little past 500 yards. Obviously that's on the upper end of typical rifle calibers from a velocity standpoint, but even my trusty 30-06 can generate some pretty dramatic wound channels on game.
     
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  16. tipoc

    tipoc Member

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    His opinion is that a 44 Magnum with a 244 gr. bullet moving at 1400 fps will cause no more damage than a 40 S&W bullet with a 180 gr. moving at under 1,000 fps. I believe he is mistaken in that and has bent the stick some to make a point.
     
  17. warnerwh

    warnerwh Member

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    You missed the point. He didn't say that the amount of damage would be equal. He said the effectiveness on humans between handgun calibers is pretty much inconsequential. Obviously a .44 magnum would likely be better on Elk than a standard .40 cal load.
     
  18. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    Ballistics gel does not take into account the situation for firing (hunting versus self defense) and does not take into account the type of animal being shot (human, deer, hog, prairie dog, etc.). It is just a block of gel. Nothing more.
     
  19. <*(((><
    • Contributing Member

    <*(((>< Luke

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    Lucky Gunner is a great resource that should be supported with purchases from time to time, they do a lot of great work.
     
  20. earlthegoat2

    earlthegoat2 Member

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    The .44 mag could be advantageous for a quicker stop if it provides a through and through wound while still reaching maximum expansion early on. The larger the caliber the bullet, the higher this likelihood becomes.

    Other than that it all depends on what organs and structures get hit and that is where the fellows saying the differences are inconsequential are probably more right than wrong.
     
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  21. Nuclear

    Nuclear Member

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    I think that they've taken data from where the curve is flat and extrapolated to a not flat or even linear. By their criteria, a 30 Carbine at point blank range is no more effective than a 32ACP. Or a hollow point 125 grain 357, one of the most effective handgun rounds ever, is no more effective than a 38 caliber powderpuff load. By their criteria, an HK 4.6x30 or a 17 HMR is more effective than ANY handgun round.
     
  22. SCMikeyP

    SCMikeyP Member

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    It's ironic that people seem to only want to use this video to justify NOT carrying a .45 (or other large caliber) but do not want to use it to justify switching to say a .22 for self defense.

    "This video is dead on" but I'll stick with my 9mm, what I carried and trusted before I watched the video o_O
     
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  23. Rule3

    Rule3 Member

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    Around 11:00 he sums it all up.

    Don't get hung up on "caliber wars":)

    Excellent video from guys that actually know what they are talking about.
     
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  24. JR24

    JR24 Member

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    Your "irony" does not apply to this video. The suggestion from the video is that until you reach rifle velocities, excess energy from larger or faster rounds has no additional effect other than penetration and expansion.

    Taking that logic and simply looking at gel tests indicates that most major service caliber hollowpoints are engineered to penetrate roughly the same in gel and expand in a similar size range (.50 to .80 mostly, with a few outliers on either end). So it makes sense to conclude that these all are within effective range, especially when paired with the real world results they receive from LEOs they work with.

    How you equate that to "well just poke .22 sized holes in the bad guy then!" is slightly confusing, leading me to wonder if you actually watched the video.
     
  25. SCMikeyP

    SCMikeyP Member

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    My point is that most people championing this video are doing so only to confirm what they already believed. No one is saying, I agree with their thoughts, I"ll down size my self defense caliber because pistol calibers have more or less the same efficacy. Instead the reaction is more, "See this is why I've always carried caliber X." Your comment is slightly confusing, using quotes to denote something that I didn't even say, leading me to wonder if you actually read my original post.
     
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