One of those darn "what powder" threads; .357 and .40
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TR, both go from mild mannered and friendly to super nasty and high pressures unexpectedly. This is especially true of Universal, it goes from great to BOOM in a hurry, Super Field isn't as bad but in both the published data is the absolute max under ideal circumstances, no way would I not work up to max with either powder in very small increments. In 40 I would also make absolutely sure setback was impossible, it doesn't take much to go from mild to wild with 40.
Power Pistol is probably the most forgiving and stable powder out there for reloaders of the 40.
Power Pistol is probably the most forgiving and stable powder out there for reloaders of the 40.
Kinda jives with my experience as well. I've worked 180's up to 5.8 and saw 1000 fps + easily with some harsh recoil.
Worked down to 5.2 looking for about 960ish to duplicate premium factory stuff and still found it more pushy than other powders including N340 which is much softer than most medium speed powders.
Interesting, today I tested some 5.8 loads with Zero 165 JHP's and they matched some 6.0 and 6.2 loads almost identically at around 1100ish. Curious that a .4 spread in charge weight will yield nearly the same performance even considering the different days and conditions the loads were tested. Just can't seem to slow this stuff down very easily. (looking for 1070ish for the 165 JHP's).
N340 loads on the other hand are very predictable at 6.6 (1100), 6.4 (1070), and 6.2 (1050), again shooting softer. My only complaint with N340 in either 165 or 180 loads is the excessive spreads (upwards to 70 fps) even though it doesn't seem to manifest itself on paper as it provides better than average accuracy.
Powerpistol tested well today yielding the best spread performance for 20 rounds (~25fps).....but that blast and flash is something you have to be in the mood for I guess.
TR
Worked down to 5.2 looking for about 960ish to duplicate premium factory stuff and still found it more pushy than other powders including N340 which is much softer than most medium speed powders.
Interesting, today I tested some 5.8 loads with Zero 165 JHP's and they matched some 6.0 and 6.2 loads almost identically at around 1100ish. Curious that a .4 spread in charge weight will yield nearly the same performance even considering the different days and conditions the loads were tested. Just can't seem to slow this stuff down very easily. (looking for 1070ish for the 165 JHP's).
N340 loads on the other hand are very predictable at 6.6 (1100), 6.4 (1070), and 6.2 (1050), again shooting softer. My only complaint with N340 in either 165 or 180 loads is the excessive spreads (upwards to 70 fps) even though it doesn't seem to manifest itself on paper as it provides better than average accuracy.
Powerpistol tested well today yielding the best spread performance for 20 rounds (~25fps).....but that blast and flash is something you have to be in the mood for I guess.
TR
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I haven't had any trouble with WSF, but I never went above 1000fps with a 180, nor would I suggest it.
No doubt Power Pistol is a great powder for 40 S&W, maybe the best, but for fireworks at the muzzle it's right up there with the worst. Slightly better in this regard is Longshot. There are reports that it spikes pressures sooner than PowerPistol, but this is at a point well beyond any book load.
The key to safety here is to learn to make good ammo before you try to load full power ammo.
David
No doubt Power Pistol is a great powder for 40 S&W, maybe the best, but for fireworks at the muzzle it's right up there with the worst. Slightly better in this regard is Longshot. There are reports that it spikes pressures sooner than PowerPistol, but this is at a point well beyond any book load.
The key to safety here is to learn to make good ammo before you try to load full power ammo.
David
TR, have you done any testing with TiteGroup or N320? Both are very popular with competitive shooters, probably #1 and #2 on the competitive scene.
I am working with TG now, I find it sharp and noisy but consistent. My only real complaint is heat, it gets a gun hotter with just a couple magazines than anything I have ever used. I am long loading it so data doesn't really correlate, but I am just under max listed loads for 1.135 while loading at 1.185 and getting 950-975 from a 5" barrel with a Zero 180 JHP. No pressure signs at all, a SWAG tells me I am still under 30K psi.
I want to test N320 but I have a couple pounds of TG left. I'll burn the TG over the winter and start with N320 in the spring.
I am working with TG now, I find it sharp and noisy but consistent. My only real complaint is heat, it gets a gun hotter with just a couple magazines than anything I have ever used. I am long loading it so data doesn't really correlate, but I am just under max listed loads for 1.135 while loading at 1.185 and getting 950-975 from a 5" barrel with a Zero 180 JHP. No pressure signs at all, a SWAG tells me I am still under 30K psi.
I want to test N320 but I have a couple pounds of TG left. I'll burn the TG over the winter and start with N320 in the spring.
Regarding the 140 gr - 158 gr. bullets in your .357: I've gone with 140 gr as my "weight of choice" in jacketed .357 bullets. To me, 158 gr is just enough lower in velocity that it isn't worth using a jacketed bullet -- not that it doesn't expand properly, but there just isn't enough velocity that I feel I wouldn't do better using a lead SWC. The 140s represent a nice enough increase in velocity without much of a drop in penetration through bullet weight.
I tested the 140 Speer Gold Dots and was very happy with them. The Hornady XTPs on the other hand were disappointing -- accuracy was fine, but 1/3 of the ones I recovered from the dirt backstop failed to expand, compared to no failures at all from Speer Gold Dots, old Speer 140s, and old Hornady 140s. I won't be buying any more 140 XTPs.
The OLD Hornady 140gr JHP was the most accurate 140 gr bullet I've used, and expanded nicely. I bought a lot of them during a clearance sale -- but the supply is gone now, and caused the to test these other bullets.
I also tested the Speer 135gr JHPs meant for "short barrels" -- expansion at lower velocities -- and was quite happy with the results in my three long barreled .357s. Excellent accuracy, but most of the bullets held together surprisingly well impacting against dry dirt. When the weather warms up a bit I'm going to do more serious testing of this bullet, and try a box of the big brother 147gr Speer Gold Dot short barrel bullets.
I tested the 140 Speer Gold Dots and was very happy with them. The Hornady XTPs on the other hand were disappointing -- accuracy was fine, but 1/3 of the ones I recovered from the dirt backstop failed to expand, compared to no failures at all from Speer Gold Dots, old Speer 140s, and old Hornady 140s. I won't be buying any more 140 XTPs.
The OLD Hornady 140gr JHP was the most accurate 140 gr bullet I've used, and expanded nicely. I bought a lot of them during a clearance sale -- but the supply is gone now, and caused the to test these other bullets.
I also tested the Speer 135gr JHPs meant for "short barrels" -- expansion at lower velocities -- and was quite happy with the results in my three long barreled .357s. Excellent accuracy, but most of the bullets held together surprisingly well impacting against dry dirt. When the weather warms up a bit I'm going to do more serious testing of this bullet, and try a box of the big brother 147gr Speer Gold Dot short barrel bullets.
Sure have on the Titegroup. I was just weighing in here on the medium speed stuff but prefer the snap of the faster powders with the 180's. I was on the GT forum last night talking about TG and even some Bullseye loads I tested just yesterday. I like to load 180's around 960ish to duplicate factory stuff.
Some are wary of the use of fast powders with 40, especially the heavier projectiles, but not me. Slower powders give that push that just transmits to more recoil and slower recovery. I suspect you knew all this already though.
Pet loads are 4.7 Titegroup with the Zero 180 JHP for about 970 fps and real tight spreads. The Bullseye load I tested yesterday was 5.0 for about the same 970 ish and equally tight spreads and groups.
I shoot N310 and 180's @ 135 PF from a 5" 1911 for ESP class in IDPA and defy anyone to make a load any softer than that, even in 9mm.
TR
Some are wary of the use of fast powders with 40, especially the heavier projectiles, but not me. Slower powders give that push that just transmits to more recoil and slower recovery. I suspect you knew all this already though.
Pet loads are 4.7 Titegroup with the Zero 180 JHP for about 970 fps and real tight spreads. The Bullseye load I tested yesterday was 5.0 for about the same 970 ish and equally tight spreads and groups.
I shoot N310 and 180's @ 135 PF from a 5" 1911 for ESP class in IDPA and defy anyone to make a load any softer than that, even in 9mm.
TR
Thanks for the info.
What is your OAL on the 4.7 TG load with 180 Zero? I am getting about the same speed with 4.7 at 1.185" from an STI with a 5.5"ish barrel.
I haven't planned on playing with 310, I have about 10 pounds of Clays on hand and another 12-14 of Bullseye filling the fast powder category around here but I will file the information.
I will be developing a 135ish PF load this month for my G22, Clays and 180 Zero JHP will be used. GSSF matches in Jan and Feb, as well as Production class in USPSA.
I too like the fastest powders I can use safely with heavy bullets. My STI is very light overall and with the lightened slide and light springs it is VERY sharp but VERY fast recovering. Tiring to punch paper with but when the buzzer sounds it is awesome.
What is your OAL on the 4.7 TG load with 180 Zero? I am getting about the same speed with 4.7 at 1.185" from an STI with a 5.5"ish barrel.
I haven't planned on playing with 310, I have about 10 pounds of Clays on hand and another 12-14 of Bullseye filling the fast powder category around here but I will file the information.
I will be developing a 135ish PF load this month for my G22, Clays and 180 Zero JHP will be used. GSSF matches in Jan and Feb, as well as Production class in USPSA.
I too like the fastest powders I can use safely with heavy bullets. My STI is very light overall and with the lightened slide and light springs it is VERY sharp but VERY fast recovering. Tiring to punch paper with but when the buzzer sounds it is awesome.
Well, I ran 124 .357 magnum and 50 .38 SPL cases through the resizing die, tonight. Still don't have any .40 dies, and my Glock is still without barrel anyway, so I'll be loading just .357/.38 for awhile. Which is probably just as well, since revolver rounds are a little easier than autopistol rounds.
Will be shopping for bullets and powder tomorrow, so I better decide by then. 800-X would look better if IMR's published .357 load data went over 36,000 CUP (SAAMI max pressure is 35,000 PSI / 45,000 CUP).
It seems like Power Pistol and Longshot are just about identical in .357 magnum loads. Longshot is a bit more powerful at pressures under 30,000 PSI, while Power Pistol is more powerful at "primer falling out" pressures. Either should be relatively forgiving in .40 S&W. Seems like Longshot may have a slight edge, but it's still not a clear-cut decision. I guess I'll just get whichever is cheaper.
Thanks for all the input, everyone.
Will be shopping for bullets and powder tomorrow, so I better decide by then. 800-X would look better if IMR's published .357 load data went over 36,000 CUP (SAAMI max pressure is 35,000 PSI / 45,000 CUP).
It seems like Power Pistol and Longshot are just about identical in .357 magnum loads. Longshot is a bit more powerful at pressures under 30,000 PSI, while Power Pistol is more powerful at "primer falling out" pressures. Either should be relatively forgiving in .40 S&W. Seems like Longshot may have a slight edge, but it's still not a clear-cut decision. I guess I'll just get whichever is cheaper.
Thanks for all the input, everyone.
I load to 1.130 for both the minor load and the blaster loads. I never could understand the long load thing except for realibility maybe in the single stacks. When I had problems with the Kimber initially, I loaded no shorter than 1.170. Turns out loading long was only masking an extractor problem which I solved by going to an AFTEC. Completely realiable with no pressure signs at 1.130.
I played with Clays for minor but found it just too hinky to steal your word. Real pressure spikey. 3.3 grains would get me 129 pf......3.4 grains would yield 136 pf with large spreads. That's why I went to N310, very stable and predictable....plus you can load to major 170 pf safely in my experience, though I don't shoot USPSA at the moment. I now only relagate Clays to outstanding sporting clays 12 gauge loads, but understand your position with all you have on-hand. I'd especially be wary with Clays and that G-22 chamber.
TR
I played with Clays for minor but found it just too hinky to steal your word. Real pressure spikey. 3.3 grains would get me 129 pf......3.4 grains would yield 136 pf with large spreads. That's why I went to N310, very stable and predictable....plus you can load to major 170 pf safely in my experience, though I don't shoot USPSA at the moment. I now only relagate Clays to outstanding sporting clays 12 gauge loads, but understand your position with all you have on-hand. I'd especially be wary with Clays and that G-22 chamber.
TR
Ryan, Longshot wants some pressure to work well, and that pressure comes with high velocity loadings. Velocities that are unpleasant in a Glock. Been there and done that. At lower velocities Power Pistol is much more consistant and was much more accurate in my G22.
TR, I appreciate the heads up on Clays minor loads. I have a LOT of powder on hand so I am not married to using Clays. I have lots of suitable powders that I can choose from. Lots of guys shooting minor 40 around here are using Clays, and some shooting major. I don't have the stones or the checkbook to play with Clays at major levels for sure, but I am going to give it a try at minor levels. Setback is not a possibility the way I load 40, so one major hurdle is overcome.
I load the 40 long for the STI simply becuase the smith that built it recommended that I do so, partly for the gun and partly for the magazines as I understand it. He said it will eat anything from 1.1 to 1.280 and I believe that as I have shot OALs from 1.15 to 1.25 through it so far, but I have been sticking with the 1.18ish loads for competitive use out of blind faith to the man that built the gun.
I got started with Clays shooting shotguns too. I've burned over 100 pounds of it so far and found nothing better for skeet and sporting loads. Then I loaded some in 38's and liked it, then 45 and on and on. I've burned a lot of International and Universal in shotshells too with good results. The only thing I miss is the smell of Red Dot when you open the gun, nothing smells better than Red Dot other than Red Dot out of paper hulls....
TR, I appreciate the heads up on Clays minor loads. I have a LOT of powder on hand so I am not married to using Clays. I have lots of suitable powders that I can choose from. Lots of guys shooting minor 40 around here are using Clays, and some shooting major. I don't have the stones or the checkbook to play with Clays at major levels for sure, but I am going to give it a try at minor levels. Setback is not a possibility the way I load 40, so one major hurdle is overcome.
I load the 40 long for the STI simply becuase the smith that built it recommended that I do so, partly for the gun and partly for the magazines as I understand it. He said it will eat anything from 1.1 to 1.280 and I believe that as I have shot OALs from 1.15 to 1.25 through it so far, but I have been sticking with the 1.18ish loads for competitive use out of blind faith to the man that built the gun.
I got started with Clays shooting shotguns too. I've burned over 100 pounds of it so far and found nothing better for skeet and sporting loads. Then I loaded some in 38's and liked it, then 45 and on and on. I've burned a lot of International and Universal in shotshells too with good results. The only thing I miss is the smell of Red Dot when you open the gun, nothing smells better than Red Dot other than Red Dot out of paper hulls....
Well, the darn store didn't even have any Power Pistol, so I picked up a half pound of 800-X. At $9, I'm not out too much money if this stuff doesn't work that well. My first reaction on pouring the powder out was "holy crap, I'm going to have to stack these grains in the case like a roll of pennies!" 
Fortunately, with a homemade brass baffle, my measure actually meters it just fine, to less than + or - 1/10 of a grain. It chops a couple flakes in half every other charge, but I can probably live with that.
Managed to get 75 rounds loaded without serious incident, though there were two squibs. Crushed my pinkie finger with the press, and seated a primer in upside-down without noticing until the round was done. Those two problems were probably the reasons for the squibs, but at least I found them with the scale instead of my gun.
Fortunately, with a homemade brass baffle, my measure actually meters it just fine, to less than + or - 1/10 of a grain. It chops a couple flakes in half every other charge, but I can probably live with that.Managed to get 75 rounds loaded without serious incident, though there were two squibs. Crushed my pinkie finger with the press, and seated a primer in upside-down without noticing until the round was done. Those two problems were probably the reasons for the squibs, but at least I found them with the scale instead of my gun.
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