ONEDOJ - new federal LE database. Blessing or curse?

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hammer4nc

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Washington Post reports on the latest LE database project being rolled out by the feebs.

Discussion points: Privacy concerns/civil rights? Potential for abuse? A necessary crime-fighting tool?

My initial comments: The article suggests that any beat cop can access the system (from his squad car?). No mention of access limitations. More concerning would be the process for entering information...who can do so, and how is information corroborated? Can any "hunch" or "theory" of an investigator now be broadcast nationwide? Once information is on the database, how could false information be removed? The implications are truly staggering. We've heard some horror stories about the "no fly" list, how it is mindlessly applied; how impossible it is for false entries to be corrected. Multiply that by about 1,000; to imagine the potential problems associated with this project.

I noticed that the database specifically excludes information about corrupt public officials or police; reinforcing the double standard of law, so popular of late. That alone should raise a red flag as to the project's efficacy!

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/25/AR2006122500483_pf.html


Justice Dept. Database Stirs Privacy Fears
Size and Scope of the Interagency Investigative Tool Worry Civil Libertarians


By Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, December 26, 2006; A07

The Justice Department is building a massive database that allows state and local police officers around the country to search millions of case files from the FBI, Drug Enforcement Administration and other federal law enforcement agencies, according to Justice officials.

The system, known as "OneDOJ," already holds approximately 1 million case records and is projected to triple in size over the next three years, Justice officials said. The files include investigative reports, criminal-history information, details of offenses, and the names, addresses and other information of criminal suspects or targets, officials said.

The database is billed by its supporters as a much-needed step toward better information-sharing with local law enforcement agencies, which have long complained about a lack of cooperation from the federal government.

But civil-liberties and privacy advocates say the scale and contents of such a database raise immediate privacy and civil rights concerns, in part because tens of thousands of local police officers could gain access to personal details about people who have not been arrested or charged with crimes.

The little-noticed program has been coming together over the past year and a half. It already is in use in pilot projects with local police in Seattle, San Diego and a handful of other areas, officials said. About 150 separate police agencies have access, officials said.

But in a memorandum sent last week to the FBI, U.S. attorneys and other senior Justice officials, Deputy Attorney General Paul J. McNulty announced that the program will be expanded immediately to 15 additional regions and that federal authorities will "accelerate . . . efforts to share information from both open and closed cases."

Eventually, the department hopes, the database will be a central mechanism for sharing federal law enforcement information with local and state investigators, who now run checks individually, and often manually, with Justice's five main law enforcement agencies: the FBI, the DEA, the U.S. Marshals Service, the Bureau of Prisons and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

Within three years, officials said, about 750 law enforcement agencies nationwide will have access.

In an interview last week, McNulty said the goal is to broaden the pool of data available to local and state investigators beyond systems such as the National Crime Information Center, the FBI-run repository of basic criminal records used by police and sheriff's deputies around the country.

By tapping into the details available in incident reports, interrogation summaries and other documents, investigators will dramatically improve their chances of closing cases, he said.

"The goal is that all of U.S. law enforcement will be able to look at each other's records to solve cases and protect U.S. citizens," McNulty said. "With OneDOJ, we will essentially hook them up to a pipe that will take them into its records."

McNulty and other Justice officials emphasize that the information available in the database already is held individually by the FBI and other federal agencies. Much information will be kept out of the system, including data about public corruption cases, classified or sensitive topics, confidential informants, administrative cases and civil rights probes involving allegations of wrongdoing by police, officials said.

But civil-liberties and privacy advocates -- many of whom are already alarmed by the proliferation of federal databases -- warn that granting broad access to such a system is almost certain to invite abuse and lead to police mistakes.

Barry Steinhardt, director of the Technology and Liberty Project at the American Civil Liberties Union, said the main problem is one of "garbage in, garbage out," because case files frequently include erroneous or unproved allegations.

"Raw police files or FBI reports can never be verified and can never be corrected," Steinhardt said. "That is a problem with even more formal and controlled systems. The idea that they're creating another whole system that is going to be full of inaccurate information is just chilling."

Steinhardt noted that in 2003, the FBI announced that it would no longer meet the Privacy Act's accuracy requirements for the National Crime Information Center, its main criminal-background-check database, which is used by 80,000 law enforcement agencies across the country.

"I look at this system and imagine it will raise many of the same questions that the whole information-sharing approach is raising across the government," said Marc Rotenberg, executive director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, a Washington-based group that has criticized many of the government's data-gathering policies.

"Information that's collected in the law enforcement realm can find [its way] into other arenas and be abused very easily," Rotenberg said.

McNulty and other officials said the data compiled under OneDOJ would be subject to the same civil-liberties and privacy oversight as any other Justice Department database. A coordinating committee within Justice will oversee the database and other information-sharing initiatives, according to McNulty's memo.

Gene Voegtlin, legislative counsel for the Arlington-based International Association of Chiefs of Police, said his group welcomes any initiatives to share more data with local law enforcement agencies.

"The working partnership between the states and the feds has gotten much better than the pre-9/11 era," Voegtlin said. "But we're still overcoming a lot of issues, both functional and organizational . . . so we're happy to see DOJ taking positive steps in that area."
 
"If it saves just one life it's worth it"

"We need to give the cop on the beat the tools he needs to do the job"

"Where are we going, and why are we in this handbasket?"

We live in the politest and most discreet police state on record.
 
a hint

do you suppose that someone, who's not posted here previous, might have applied a lil thought and reason, and that it occured to them that putting in the info on police wrongdoing investigstions into a database the accused could get into might compromise the investigations? as well as the safety of witnesses etc? not nearly as exciting as your conspiracy angle but not without its merit. likewise putting the political nonsense out there would make our already sad system dive into the cesspool wholesale.

you do raise valid points about who enters and verifies. as well as who corrects misinfo. we don't need a leo version of wiki.
on the flip side such a database would have prevented a guy here from doing 2 decades for attempted rape he didn't do.
 
I noticed that the database specifically excludes information about corrupt public officials or police; reinforcing the double standard of law, so popular of late.
It's not about a "double standard" it's about not tipping off a cop or other public official if they are the subject of the investigation. If all the cops have access to the system, then a bad cop could simply look up his own name know he was under investigation and work to derail the case.
 
We already have a system like this in my county. CRIMES is a countywide law enforcement system, where everything from traffic warnings to narrative reports are entered.

You guys are making a big deal out of nothing. All this means is that the sharing of information between agencies is easier.

Privacy concerns???:what: What makes you think you have right to privacy in a police report? This stuff is public record. It can all come out in court and once it's in the court record it's in the public domain.

Just who do you think will be looking at all this stuff? It's not like there will be a web link that anyone with an internet connection will be able to access.

You know what, if I want to know what hunch or theory an investigator has that might relate to my case, I just have to call him. It's not like before this it was forbidden to share information between agencies.

I think there are a lot more real dangers to our freedom then a database of information that agencies share with each other already......

Jeff
 
Jeff, as long as the database is limited to that purpose, I agree.

However, what concerns me and I am tinfoil free up top, is that this database grows beyond say when I was pulled over at Purdue for rolling through a stop sign. If it becomes like the SS/SA files, I have grave concerns.:uhoh:
 
The article suggests that any beat cop can access the system (from his squad car?

Well, maybe in more sophisticated jurisdictions... ;)

Around here the deputies have to call into the lone dispatcher for "29-31" information. One time they had stopped someone with Ontario plates, and the dispatcher did find a Canadian warrant out for the guy, but it came up on the computer in French :D
 
So, Jeff... Lets play out this Scenario...

1) your Business is robbed and graffiti is sprayed inside...any gang stuff would do..Latin Kings ill work....you file a police report, and the officer enters this info in your name under this database.

2) 2 years down the road...you are walking to your car, and a couple of Latinos jumps your wife with a knife..you drill one. Seems perfectly fine..until an overzealous DA wants to make a case against you..seems you might have been predisposed to take harsher actions against Latinos since your Data file says your business was wrecked by them 2 years back....More useless info being used against you...

This is of course just a quick non thought out scenario, but you get the gist...
 
. . . non thought out . . .
You don't say? :rolleyes:

1st, this system is to give local cops access to info on fed cases. While the robbery of business might fall under the Hobbs Act, it's EXTREMELY unlikely to be a fed investigation as you describe.

2nd, with or without this database any half way decent lawyer, whether a prosecutor or civil attorney filing a tort against JW, will have investigators that will turn up the earlier contact with the police very quickly. The ONEDOJ database wouldn't affect it in the least.
 
El T,
I don't see the database growing into an electronic version of the gestapo/stasi/J Edgar Hoover's personal file cabinet. WHo the heck is going to sitdown and do all the data entry that would be necessary to create such a thing. Not the working cops out there. I don't see myself sitting down each shift and entering the contents of my pocket notebook into some database or writing some type of blog type entry as to what I encountered during my shift.

What I do see is the consolidation of reports and records we're already keeping.

Everyone needs to understand that if you have contact with the police and the officer gets his notebook out of his pocket and writes something in it, that it isn't private information. It became public information as soon as the officer wrote it down.

CDignition,
That information is already available to the DA. If you are involved in a defensive shooting, the investigation is going to look into any possible relationship between you and the person you shot. The burglary at your business will be looked at. It's standard procedure.

Most departments are using using database programs now. Every incident is recorded. Most of the commercially available programs sold to police departments for this type of recordkeeping have a master name file and that will pull up every incident your name is associated with. The first thing the investigator is going to do, is put your name into the master name file and see what contact the police have had with you. The robbery and graffiti incident is going to pop right up.

The systems we use right now keeps all kinds of records. If I run a license plate, I get back every agency that has run that p[late in tha last 10 days. It's not all that unusual to get a call, wanting to know what contact you may have had with a subject on a certain date, because another agency is investigating that subject and found out you ran him 4 days ago.

The information is already in the system. All this proposes to do is make accessing it easier. It's not adding anything that isn't already there.

Jeff
 
Most lovely. Officer Friendly from the local police force is the tool that will be used to crack down on the populace ('dissidents', 'unfavorables', or anyone else that is seen as a threat to a future regime) at some future point in time; they've now got the SWAT teams for the break-ins, institutionalized elitist/class 'militant' attitudes, and excemption from laws which apply to other civilians (ie NFA etc.), and federal funding for weapons, training, and equipment. Now they've got federally-compiled databases.

Don't tell me something like "but they're already up to their neck in law enforcement, they won't have the time for that!" - most police in this country are occupied with traffic enforcement except in urban areas, where things like firearm owners (the only people who could reasonably put up any resistance against such affront) are already almost non-existant. If push comes to shove, cops will get the order to ignore 'more common crime' and just enforce firearm laws to help crack down against 'militants', 'extremists', 'insurgents', or 'terrorists' - whatever the word of the day is. Traitors, maybe.
 
I don't see the database growing into an electronic version of the gestapo/stasi/J Edgar Hoover's personal file cabinet. WHo the heck is going to sitdown and do all the data entry that would be necessary to create such a thing. Not the working cops out there. I don't see myself sitting down each shift and entering the contents of my pocket notebook into some database or writing some type of blog type entry as to what I encountered during my shift.

I don't know where you are, but from what I've seen the trend has been to equip police forces - everything from urban beat cops to small town police - with a computer of some sort with software and hardware capable of connecting to the precinct computers to gain instant access to information. I have a computer used in this role in a previous life - an NEC MobilePro 780 - and with a single add-on card and the right software, would likely cost little more than $2000 - a trivial cost compared to that of a squad car, and easy to use. Certainly quicker and easier to use/organize information than a paper pocket notebook.

Simply put, they'd enter the information on-site while sitting in their squad car. "Step into my office" they'd say after frisking you, placing you in the back of their car while they ask and enter their 20 questions...

I know for a fact that this was possible in a small town in South Dakota, population $10,000, 5+ years ago, from a technological standpoint. Now there's the organized link which provides a means for those beat cops to gain any sort of information from the top-down.Which is fine, as long as the system isn't abused - but how likely is that to remain the case? All they have to do is cross-reference databases with a program (which would be trivial to do) and figure out who's likely to be a threat (number of guns purchased and how many recently, which state you're in, any carry permit/license, etc.) and flag your file as a potential terrorist.
 
Fine, great, I want private access to it.


If this is all a matter of public record than there should be no complaints from the LEO types when I look up their home addresses and criminal involvement.

Considering that it provides evidence of investigations against people, I would dearly love to see complaints against law enforcement in it by name and badge.

I also want to see credit reports on LEO's listed so we can see who is likely on the take.

Does it hit a little close to home? Starting to understand why most freedom loving people are against it?
 
We can access all kinds of databases on our MDCs. However we have to go the office to enter things into CRIMES, the countywide system. Can only access it from there too.

All they have to do is cross-reference databases with a program (which would be trivial to do) and figure out who's likely to be a threat (number of guns purchased and how many recently, which state you're in, any carry permit/license, etc.) and flag your file as a potential terrorist.

Quite frankly I think you're getting a little parnoid here. Right now I can put out a BOLO on a subject and that will cause all kinds of interesting things to happen to that person on his next encounter with the police.

The system as it exists now has different levels of access. As the beat officer, I can access and read about anything in the system. However I can't enter much into the system you have to have a different level of access to do that. There are checks and balances in the system we have now. Sure it can be abused and I'm positive it possibly has been in the past, but it's not easy to get by with abusing the system.

As I said before, everything an officer writes down is public record. And we already share with each other.

That genie has been out of the bottle for decades.

Jeff
 
Jeff, I understand where you come from as an LEO, but in this country, we have continually had more and more violations of the people's civil liberties. Up to, and including

a.) using eminent domain to confiscate land for private use,

b.) police disarming people in disaster areas,

c.) and incumbent politicians getting bills passed which violate the 1st Amendment by punishing free speech within certain time windows of elections.

Would this system be a bad thing for civil liberties? Not necessarily. But considering the government's prerogatives recently in other avenues, this does not look good for civil liberties. Mainly because the government isn't so much concerned with stopping street crime as it is with silencing decent, and stealing private property.

PS

BrerRabbit is correct. What if any of this info could and would be entered into computers, and accessed, and looked at by the public, AND it involved officer info and credit reports?

Think about it. Then tell me if you would support this system.
 
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brerrabbit said;
Fine, great, I want private access to it.

Nope, you don't need to have access to it. Your having access to it would be a privacy issue. You have no need to know what involvelment your neighbor has had with the police. And your neighbor has no need to know about yours. When the information goes to court, then it is in the public domain. Before then it's pretty much for official use only. And it needs to stay that way.

If this is all a matter of public record than there should be no complaints from the LEO types when I look up their home addresses and criminal involvement.

You are free at this very moment to look up the home address of any officer you wish on any database or phone book. You are also welcome at any time to go to the courthouse and look up what any officer has been charged with and convicted of. No complaints at all. You can do that for anyone.

Considering that it provides evidence of investigations against people, I would dearly love to see complaints against law enforcement in it by name and badge.

Call your police department and ask them. When complaints change into charges, either adminsitrative or criminal they are public record just like anyone elses. Call your police department and ask them about complaints against your neighbor and you'll likely get the same answer. When the complaints evolve into charges then they are in the public domain, before that, they are withheld from the public because of privacy concerns.

I also want to see credit reports on LEO's listed so we can see who is likely on the take.

Where I live the newspaper publishes how much every public employee makes. Every year. Credit reports are something else entirely. You have no right to see anyone's credit report unless that person is applying to you for credit. Just look up how much a public employee makes in the paper or at your library. It's public information, then match it up against his lifestyle if you're so concerned.

Does it hit a little close to home? Starting to understand why most freedom loving people are against it?

No, it doesn't hit close to home at all. Everything you asked for is available to you if you know where to look. Once a year you can buy the local paper and find out exactly how much I was paid that year.

Most freedom loving people aren't against this because it doesn't really change anything. The only people who seem to be against it are the THR members with a more anarchist, anti any government viewpoint.

This is a non issue. Law enforcement agencies have been sharing information since they began. I suppose the old practice of posting wanted posters in the Post Office was trampling the rights of freedom loving people everywhere?
:uhoh:

There are enough real government power grabs to be concerned about that it's silly to get all bent out of shape over the automation of a process that was previously done manually.

Jeff
 
Jeff, it's just a difference of opinion then.

I'm definitely NOT an anarchist, and I'm not inherently anti-government. But, when the government does something like this, it is a definite violation of civil rights. What's more, the systems in place before this were also violations of civil rights.

The fact that BrerRabbit can tell you the difference by pointing out how it would be if it were you, shocks me.

The police can of course have running info going while on the course of an investigation, but having that info available to any and all beat cops without proper perspective, or a requirement to read the whole thing could easily lead to problems.

Not only that, but you saying that having certain info about cops would be a violation of civil rights and not seeing the irony of your statements amuses me.

Your credit report is not public record? Yeah, it's not. But, I would argue a police officer's should be. You get a half mil in debt and your working a major drug case, money might find it's way into your pocket to look the other way. I don't know about that.

And, most cops I know would never let their home address be known in the phone book. Not with the people they go after. Cops have every right to that of course, but BrerRabbit's point wasn't to say he actually wants the system open to anyone with an internet connection. It was simply to say that a central database for this information might violate civil rights.
 
Jeff White

You said earlier that that anything on the combined database was a matter of public record. If so, it does not fall under privacy laws and it is not therefore an issue for us to access.

A few years ago, I had a child enforcement agency get my tax records before I did, no warrant, no suspicion of falsifying my records, nothing. If you want this system in place so much, I would like you to be subject to it as much as the rest of us and have it as open to the public as it is now to LEO.

The local DHS officials will not provide their full name while excercising authority. Nor will their names be provided by the courthouse even if it is your case worker. This is the same for the local law enforcement officers.

Contrary to your statement, I do have a need to know all records. If they are public records, then it is my right. I do not have to display a need to know to excercise a right.

The fact that you are so against civilians having access to the database speaks a lot to the rest of us.

Just because the records are on file at a local courthouse does not remove my right to be able to access those records against a central database. If it was so, why do LEO need the database, after all, all those records are recorded somewhere. If it is good for the rest of us,,,
 
Living in the Brave new World of TSA, wehre you can be put on a no-fly list with no reason that you're allowed to know, I'm basically against these sorts of all-inclusive data-bases.

I can readily trust the Jeff Whites of this world, but that doesn't necessarily extend to bureaucrats in government offices with the power to "interpret" data--court cases or no.

And I have the memory of what came out of FOIA stuff about FBI files, with their tons of hearsay and unverified information.

It's a matter of trust. Simple as that: I don't trust our government to have my best interests at heart.

Art
 
Clearly law enforcement (and other government) agencies need to communicate what they know with each other.

It seems to me that the question is whether or not increasing the efficiency of information flow at some point induces a qualitative change in the system.

At the limit, having representatives of the government able to instantly know everything there is to know about me seems somehow incompatible with a free society.

To me, the question of where the appropriate limits on the free availability of information about citizens lie is not trivial.

At first it seems that information based on suppositions, opinions, or speculation unsupported by actual charges or convictions should not be freely available via some computer network. Divorced from the details which led to those opinions, such information seems all too likely to be misused.

On the other hand, it might just be the thing you need to tie together a string of horrible crimes.

Seems to me that we need to decide whether freedom or safety is the primary goal. I think the answer to that question helps draw the line in answering the former.
 
also

"On the other hand, it might just be the thing you need to tie together a string of horrible crimes."

this could also help prevent the wrong person getting nailed as well we had a case here where a guy served 20 years and this kinda info exchange coulda stopped it.
 
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