Op-Ed on ATF Pistol Brace ruling.

[Elkins45]

I don't know of ANY stocks that have a hook on them like that do you?

I know one. This one.

If you’re seriously going to maintain the fiction that this thing was primarily intended to function as a brace and just accidentally behaves just like a CAR adjustable stock then I really don’t think there’s much left to discuss. I paid $100 for this particular model precisely for that reason.

 

[Mauser fan]

Well said. You must have read the same over 200 pages of mind numbing ATF regulation I did. Because I came to the same conclusion. It is enough to put an insomniac to sleep.

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I fully support everyone’s right to an opinion and to express their opinion, but many ideas about the brace situation and opinions of the same are just flat out silly.

It’s been put in writing. Repeatedly. It’s been published in a gazillion places. Repeatedly. Asking for a photo seems senseless but because they are asking for it and offering amnesty then they really can’t legally do anything to people now. That would be entrapment. No this idiotic situation is not under the same administration as the MG amnesty and registration, but it is set up to be similar. What was legal is no longer legal. Here’s notice, comply by X date. If you wish to keep your toy then you can do so, just register it by filling out these forms. It’s not something I like, but it is no grand conspiracy like a lot of folks are making it out to be.

 

[wally]

The practical definition of a loophole is “it’s legal but I don’t like it.” The original arm brace was legal, but once people started making things that were clearly intended to function as a stock ATF started to “don’t like it”…and yet they still didn’t do anything about it until Biden made them.

Can you honestly look me in the eye and tell me this thing isn’t a stock? This wasn’t designed to be an arm brace, it was designed to pretend to be an arm brace. Why would an arm brace ever need a 13” adjustable LOP? I bought one precisely for that reason. I kept expecting ATF to pull the rug out but after a few years they didn’t so I rolled the dice. I lost. I’m not angry nor am I surprised. The only surprises to me are (1) it lasted as long as it did and (2) they gave us an option to Form 1 them. I expected them to just order everyone to saw them into pieces like they did with bump stocks.

I have one of those "tailhook" braces, if you have long skinny forearms as I do the increased length of pull lets me adjust it to the "meat" of my arm to maximize its effectiveness. While 13" may indeed be "excessive" for me, It could work better for others. It is the most effective brace for me. If it was a problem, why did ATF approve it when originally submitted? I have plenty of registered SBRs I almost always run them at minimum OAL, nose to the charging handle, YMMV.

 

[Elkins45]

If Congress has a problem with the laws on the books then change should come in the form of a bill and work its way through the process established by our founding documents.

I don’t think anyone here disagrees with that, nor do I think anyone is rubbing their hands in glee that pistol braces were reclassified. What I’ve been pushing back against are the people who think it’s a felony trap and the ones taking the rhetorical stance that a previous ATF determination would somehow be carved in stone and immune to the whims of an anti-gun President. Didn’t anyone learn anything from bump stocks?

 

[dogtown tom]

It's not a stock. It's an arm brace. Per the text of the law, they are legally NOT a SBR....

Show us that law.
I'll save you the trouble, there ain't one.

The ATF is writing law for the political purposes.

ATF doesn't write law, they write regulations that are enabled by the law that Congress passed.

The Biden administration told to ban braces, and they choose to follow orders. Some people foolishly believe violating the "spirit" of a law is the equivalent to violating the text of the law. It is not. Seem that the plain text of the law and words have no meaning anymore. It's "spirit" and "feelings" that take precedent. They are de facto creating new law when they clearly are interpreting the text of the law to mean something it doesn't say. If the law says knife with a 3" blade or less is legal, and an unelected state agency unilaterally interpret and deicides that a knife with a 3.000000000000001" blade should also be covered by the original law, then they de facto changed or rewritten the law. The original law now means something other than what it states.

If ATF doesn't have the authority to determine whether a firearm is an SBR, they don't have the authority to say an arm brace is or is not a shoulder stock.
Understand that ATF since 1934 has always held that attaching anything to a pistol for use as a shoulder stock was creating an SBR.

A pistol brace wasn't designed, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder by the manufacturer. How the end user deicides to use it isn't addressed in current law therefore whatever isn't explicitly illegal is legal by default.

Thats laughable.

Pistol braces are CLEARLY legal per text of the law.

Again, post the text of this imaginary law.

Again, there is nothing in the text of the Federal NFA law that has the word "misuse" in it with regards to defining what a rifle is. That is, it's perfectly LEGAL for the end user to misuse, "skirt the law," or use a "loophole" by shouldering a pistol with a brace on it as braces were NOT designed, made/manufactured, and intended to be used as a stock! This is just plan logic and common-sense IMHO.

Sorry, but definitions matter. SBR has a definition that has remained unchanged for decades. That's why Shockwave sought a determination letter from ATF in 2012 as to whether their arm brace attached to a pistol resulted in the making of an NFA firearm. ATF said it did not. It soon became clear that they were in fact being attached with the intent to use as a shoulder stock......and ATF realized they'd been hoodwinked. Other manufacturers began making arm braces without any determination letter from ATF.

I'm surprised by how many gun owners on this forum are using illogical antigun rhetoric and reasonings to support the idea that the ATF is right, bump stocks and braces should have never been approved, and/or they are NFA items...

It's illogical to you because you think there is a law that says "pistol braces are CLEARLY legal".

 

[Elkins45]

If it was a problem, why did ATF approve it when originally submitted?

Why did they approve bump stocks?

Pistol braces aren’t the issue, they are merely the latest symptom. The issue is an agency being forced to redefine terms based on Presidential fiat, and it started under Trump. Once they let that genie out of the bottle everyone lined up to get their wish.

 

[Mauser fan]

Ok ladies and gentlemen if you really want to know what I think of this topic here it is.

Here is my take on the whole pistol brace topic. Please bear with me and don't take anything away from this post as a rant at all or interpret this post as anti assault weapons anything. I just don't have any use for them personally since I'm retired from the Army. If it is something that floats your boat then sail on. Besides you asked for opinions here.

The term assault rifle is one that is used too often nowadays loosely without any thought or knowledge to its origin. The term pistol brace falls neatly into the same category of terms for firearms related today as they have been around for centuries now in one form or another. The problem that we are encountering now is that mass media is involved along with for lack of a better term udder piss poor marketing coupled with timing of all of the past 100 years of mass shootings or it would seem that way.

The term pistol brace has been coined to market a part that in all truth is nothing more than a stock that is placed on a hand gun. So it would seem that it is something new to the masses who don't know any better to buy with a hurried fervor. When in-fact they have been around for a lot longer than any of us have been alive. So old is new and the latest fashion. Again I have no use for them. If thats what floats your boat sail on.

The biggest problem is when someone wants use a stock aka pistol brace with an SBR short barreled rifle that is where the water gets murky and you have topics such as this one. The ATF and federal government would not step in or have any justification to do so if one individual or group of individuals hadn't done something astronomically stupid with them in the first place. Yet again I have no use for an SBR either as defined by a rifle that has a barrel length shorter than 16 inches. If thats what floats your boat then sail on.

So here we are presented with the current conundrum of the day. What are those to who want to posses such things to do? The short answer is pay for the tax stamp and register your property or don't. The choice is yours. If you do decide to register one or many and later on sell it or them send me the used tax stamp or stamps I collect the damn things.

Besides law enforcement and the federal government have bigger fish to fry right now. This is something that I'm just not overly concerned about.

Okay I did something I normally don't do but given the fact I plan on applying for an FFL soon I need to be aware of such rulings and laws. I visited the ATF's web sight and typed in pistol brace to the sites search engine and sure enough there is a mind numbing # of pages that cover the topic and is very clear as to what defines a pistol brace even going as far as to have color photos and youtube videos. Additionally a lengthy list of firearms past and present including antiques that fall into the category of using a pistol brace. It encompasses pistols, rifles and shotguns.

The moral of the story is if you want to own one of these items it would behove you to visit the ATF's website yourself before buying or selling one. If thats what floats your boat then sail on.

 

[WestKentucky]

Deleted the rant.

It didn’t make much sense. No sleep for days does that. Anybody need a 2 year old for a couple days???

 

[CGilbert74]

In my humble opinion - I think that this is being way overthought. I’ve read the articles, and have viewed most of the legal/lawyer videos. If you have one of these devices (I do), either register it or don’t - it’s up to you. I’ve talked personally to several Class 3 FFL’s and their opinion is that this isn’t a huge deal. Their thoughts are that if you bought one legally, there’s a paper trail anyway - and if any of us think the ATF doesn’t already know we have them, then we’re kidding ourselves. Is it right to have bought a piece of plastic and some Velcro that was perfectly legal at the time, and then get the rug pulled out from under - absolutely not. It’s ridiculous. But it also it what it is, at least for the time being. I have a strong feeling that this will win in court with injunctions and all that good stuff. But…I’ll take the free tax stamp anyway.

 

[Mosin77]

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I fully support everyone’s right to an opinion and to express their opinion, but many ideas about the brace situation and opinions of the same are just flat out silly.

It’s been put in writing. Repeatedly. It’s been published in a gazillion places. Repeatedly. Asking for a photo seems senseless but because they are asking for it and offering amnesty then they really can’t legally do anything to people now. That would be entrapment. No this idiotic situation is not under the same administration as the MG amnesty and registration, but it is set up to be similar. What was legal is no longer legal. Here’s notice, comply by X date. If you wish to keep your toy then you can do so, just register it by filling out these forms. It’s not something I like, but it is no grand conspiracy like a lot of folks are making it out to be.

I generally agree with this.

My question is, what happens if I fill out the forms like a good boy and/or a prudent boy who wants to save $200, and wait. And wait some more. And now (thanks to the fact that ~5,000,000 other people filled out forms at the same time as me) the grace period has expired, and I still don’t have my stamp. Does this mean that, having filled out the forms, I now have an illegal SBR on my hands, or maybe some constructive possession of such, assuming I prudently take the brace/stock off till my paperwork is approved?

I highly doubt that the government’s actually trying for mass entrapment here. I strongly suspect they just want to “fix” the mess that they partially helped create, in the most straightforward way possible in light of their existing regulatory framework. But stranger things have happened and in light of the draconian penalties for violating the NFA, if I owned a braced pistol I’d be very much inclined to just toss the brace and go about submitting a paid form 1 eventually after the fuss dies down.

 

[Captains1911]

I generally agree with this.

My question is, what happens if I fill out the forms like a good boy and/or a prudent boy who wants to save $200, and wait. And wait some more. And now (thanks to the fact that ~5,000,000 other people filled out forms at the same time as me) the grace period has expired, and I still don’t have my stamp. Does this mean that, having filled out the forms, I now have an illegal SBR on my hands, or maybe some constructive possession of such, assuming I prudently take the brace/stock off till my paperwork is approved?

All you do is remove the brace from the firearm and there is no SBR. People are overthinking this.

 

[12Bravo20]

I generally agree with this.

My question is, what happens if I fill out the forms like a good boy and/or a prudent boy who wants to save $200, and wait. And wait some more. And now (thanks to the fact that ~5,000,000 other people filled out forms at the same time as me) the grace period has expired, and I still don’t have my stamp. Does this mean that, having filled out the forms, I now have an illegal SBR on my hands, or maybe some constructive possession of such, assuming I prudently take the brace/stock off till my paperwork is approved?

I highly doubt that the government’s actually trying for mass entrapment here. I strongly suspect they just want to “fix” the mess that they partially helped create, in the most straightforward way possible in light of their existing regulatory framework. But stranger things have happened and in light of the draconian penalties for violating the NFA, if I owned a braced pistol I’d be very much inclined to just toss the brace and go about submitting a paid form 1 eventually after the fuss dies down.

Yes you can just remove the brace while waiting. Plus the ATF has stated in the rule that you will get a receipt showing that you filed your Form 1 within the 120 grace period to keep you from getting in trouble for having a SBR in your possession without the approved Form 1. This only goes for brace pistols that are now considered a SBR.

 

[Tinker-S]

View attachment 1133474

I fully support everyone’s right to an opinion and to express their opinion, but many ideas about the brace situation and opinions of the same are just flat out silly.

It’s been put in writing. Repeatedly. It’s been published in a gazillion places. Repeatedly. Asking for a photo seems senseless but because they are asking for it and offering amnesty then they really can’t legally do anything to people now. That would be entrapment. No this idiotic situation is not under the same administration as the MG amnesty and registration, but it is set up to be similar. What was legal is no longer legal. Here’s notice, comply by X date. If you wish to keep your toy then you can do so, just register it by filling out these forms. It’s not something I like, but it is no grand conspiracy like a lot of folks are making it out to be.

I wish most people would see it through you eyes!

 

[citizenconn]

All you do is remove the brace from the firearm and there is no SBR. People are overthinking this.

It is prudent to change the buffer tube to a slick tube where the brace cannot be reinstalled as well, depending one one's risk aversion tolerance.