Open bolt vs. Closed bolt

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Jul 12, 2007
Messages
338
Location
Seymour, Indiana
Hi all. Many times when reading a thread about full auto rifles Ive come across a reference to open bolt operation and how its better than closed bolt operation for full auto. Ive searched on here and on the web but I cant seem to find anything that actually tells me what the difference is between open and closed bolt. Can anyone explain this to me? I would really appreciate it. Atleast then I can understand what everyone else is talking about.
 
what i have learned is that open bolt locks back the bolt every time a round is fired. it is open, you pull the trigger, it closes, stripping the next round out of the mag, chambers it, and then fires it, it gets kicked back by whatever OS the system uses, and locks back. the closed bolt is the thing most, if not all semi auto rifles use. think ar, ak, fal..... the open bolt is advantagoeus in that it allows air to come in through the chamber and cool it, reducing the chance of a melt off. on the other hand, it allows more things to go wrong, making for misfires. LWRC recently made a automatic rifle for teh goverment that can fire BOTH open and closed bolt, so if needed, you can have the relibality of the closed bolt system.

everyone feel free to correct me if i am wrong.
:)
 
Open bolt is used in many full-auto SMGs (Uzi and Ingram MAC-10/11 for example) and it simplifies the mechanism as the firing pin is machined on the bolt face so as the bolt closes on the round the firing pin hits the primer, fires, and then the blowback force takes over to extract and eject, and if the trigger is still held back, the bolt will simply return forward, strip a round, etc.....

In some designs, a safety feature (such as the grip safety on the Uzi) is required to keep the bolt from flying forward in the event that the gun is dropped. The force of the bolt closing is what fires the gun, as the firing pin is already protruding (since it is machined into the bolt face). So if the bolt was realeased due to the shock of being dropped, you would have a discharge even if the trigger wasn't pulled. The trigger simply releases the bolt to allow it to fly forward (stripping the top round from the mag, yadda yadda yadda...).

It's actually quite simple when you realize how it all works.

At least, this is MY understanding of it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Many times when reading a thread about full auto rifles Ive come across a reference to open bolt operation and how its better than closed bolt operation for full auto.

Depends. Open bolt guns tend to cool better, but tend to have worse-feeling triggers, sear area wear, and poorer first-shot accuracy. Closed bolt guns tend to have have more problems with cookoff of chambered rounds, less cooling, but better triggers and first shot accuracy.

If an open bolt gun uses Advanced Primer Ignition, it can use this effect to operate with a lower recoilling mass for a faster cyclic rate and lower overall weight.

Open bolt guns can be less safe, as all it can take to get one to fire is to jar the bolt to the point where it closes and therefore fires. Common design problem with open bolt submachineguns.

So there's pros and cons and either is a compromise.

Ive searched on here and on the web but I cant seem to find anything that actually tells me what the difference is between open and closed bolt. Can anyone explain this to me?

Open bolt guns when cocked have their bolt open. When you pull the trigger, the bolt closes, chambers a round, and fires as the round is just finally being chambered.

Closed bolt guns when cocked already have the bolt closed. When the trigger is pulled, the firing mechanism *only* moves to fire the round.

With both, upon firing the bolt opens. With open bolt guns, the bolt is held open, whereas with closed bolt guns the bolt closes again.

There are some designs that fire from the closed bolt for the first shot, but subsequent shots are from an open bolt.

Many gun designs have moving barrels as well, just to complicate things.
 
An open bolt fires(it's not better) with the bolt in the open/locked back position. Pulling the trigger releases the bolt to do the rest of its job of loading and firing. Aids in cooling for an SMG. Used primarily in blow back actions with a fixed firing pin.
The STEN and Thompson, et al used open bolt firing. The bolt moves back and forth over the balance point of the firearm. The weight of the bolt moving back and forth over the balance point causes the firearm to bounce around a fair bit.
A closed bolt is the same as any semi-auto. There are extra parts to make the firearm FA. The MP5 uses a closed bolt. So does an M16. That's what makes them accurate.
 
CYANIDEGENOCIDE,

Those two videos seem to show the difference between blowback vs. gas-piston operation, rather than closed- vs. open-bolt, as both videos APPEAR to show open-bolt operation.
 
maybe, but the second video clearly shows the firing pin moving independently of the bolt, instead of the thompson in the first which chambers and fires as one action. The way the clip was animated it makes sense to start at chambering the cartridge.
 
maybe, but the second video clearly shows the firing pin moving independently of the bolt, instead of the thompson in the first which chambers and fires as one action.

I'll agree with you on that one, so I won't argue with you since I can't find any videos specific to the open- vs. closed-bolt discussion. :)

As a side-note, the video of the Thompson is correct. I just didn't like how the video of the AK/FAL/whatever starts with the bolt open and being released by the trigger.

Notice the difference in what the trigger does when it is pulled:

Open-bolt: http://science.howstuffworks.com/machine-gun6.htm
Closed-bolt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZipq6D6D9k
 
CYANIDEGENOCIDE wrote:

maybe, but the second video clearly shows the firing pin moving independently of the bolt, instead of the thompson in the first which chambers and fires as one action.

The movement of a firing pin relative to a bolt is irrelevant to the definition of whether a gun is open bolt or closed bolt. Many open bolt guns have moving firing pins, and a closed bolt gun can have a firing pin that doesn't even move to fire (electrically primed, or barrel moves to battery).

In fact Thompson submachinguns had moving firing pins up until the M1A1 version. But they all were open bolt guns.

Note that because of Tech Branch decisions, any gun manufactured after 1981 and firing from an open bolt is legally considered a machinegun, even if strictly semiauto by design.

So add another factor: open bolt semiuatos are usually easier to convert to machineguns, but also have legal constraints on their manufacture.
 
Last edited:
The two terms describe where the bolt is when the trigger is to be pulled to initiate firing.

A closed bolt system starts firing with the bolt closed.

An open bolt system starts firing with the bolt being released to run forward from the open bolt position and fire.

After firing and extraction and ejection a closed bolt sytems bolt runs forward and feeds and chambers a new cartridge, it may fire the cartridge or stop with the bolt forward on the chambered round awaiting the next rigger pull depending on whether it is in automatic mode or semi automatic.
After firing extracting and ejecting the bolt of an open bolt system may be allowed to continue to run forwards and back if itis a fully automatic weapon or select fire until te triger is released at which point the bolt is locked in the open position until the triger is again pulled. A semiauto open bolt gun or a select fire open bolt gun set on semi auto locks the bolt back ove an empty chamber for each shot until it is released by puling the triger again.

There have been a number of open bolt semi auto pistols and rifles, but in the US their manufacture and in some cases ownership is dicouraged by the Federal Government

Open bolt guns typically have FEWER parts than closed bolt guns and FEWER malfunctions in most designs as they are less complex.

Most belt fed guns in general use today are open bolt guns. Many non belt fed LMG and automatic rifles ( and here I mean rifles that were meant to function as a squad auto weapon inthe past such as the BAR)were open bolt.

While open bolt sytems may in some designs use a simple firing pin fixed or machined into the bolt fave many use a seperate firing pin. Forinstance the M1921 and M1928 series THompsons used a firing pin that only went forward at the moment the bolt closed as a pivoted "hammer" to which the firing pin was attached was slamed into a surface in the gun. The US M-60 MG had a firing pin that was mated to the operating rod when the bolt and op rod were properly assembled and was only driven fully forwar as the bolt jugs locked and the op rod finished its forward movement Even the mighty M-2 HB has a firing pin seperate from the bolt that is controlled by a trigger. Ma Duece is actually sort of a hybrid as she may be fired fully auto from an open bolt or semi auto from a closed bolt using both the bolt release and the trigger seperately.

As with closed bolt guns open bolt guns have been designed around gas, short recoil and long recoil systems.

Have fun with research.

-Bob Hollingsworth
 
CYANIDEGENOCIDE,

Those two videos seem to show the difference between blowback vs. gas-piston operation, rather than closed- vs. open-bolt, as both videos APPEAR to show open-bolt operation.

I agree but it showed it well enough for me to get it too
 
"...wont have to feel left out..." Hate to see anybody feeling left out.
Looked at the How Stuff page. Didn't think it showed either operation.
 
When travelling Interstate . . .

My bolts are absent on my rifles. Makes it hard to fire, but makes finding it near the point of tearing my vehicle to shreds to find it. I'm not subject to road rage while transporting my firearms. I just want to get to my hunting destin-action without incident. Carrying a loaded weapon in a vehicle begs for conflict. I abide all reasonable laws. cliffy
 
When travelling Interstate . . .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My bolts are absent on my rifles. Makes it hard to fire, but makes finding it near the point of tearing my vehicle to shreds to find it. I'm not subject to road rage while transporting my firearms. I just want to get to my hunting destin-action without incident. Carrying a loaded weapon in a vehicle begs for conflict. I abide all reasonable laws. cliffy


:confused:
 
My bolts are absent on my rifles. Makes it hard to fire, but makes finding it near the point of tearing my vehicle to shreds to find it. I'm not subject to road rage while transporting my firearms. I just want to get to my hunting destin-action without incident. Carrying a loaded weapon in a vehicle begs for conflict. I abide all reasonable laws. cliffy

Do what? Did you read and understand ANY of the previous comments.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top