Open Carry again

[BSA1]

I am trying of thinking of a way to say this without getting my comment deleted or getting a warning from the Mods so I will put it this way;

There are other factors that may play a role in the Police response to a person open carrying. The Court in the Northrup case cited some of them in it's ruling (Grandfather, wife, granddaughter walking the dog on a public sidewalk in a normal way as to not cause alarm) and how they applied to Terry vs. Ohio.

Another factor could be how a person is dressed. Certain attire to a trained LEO is a sign of gang membership.

I know some of you are thinking this but are afraid to say it but a area of big concern that is making the news more and more is the color of persons skin. Whether this is actually the case I do not know but it is receiving a lot of news coverage.

All of THR members should be familiar with the Courts decision in Terry vs. Ohio. After a certain reading it will give you a foundation to understand the ruling in Northrup and our concern about both Concealed and Open Carry.

http://www.essortment.com/review-terry-vs-ohio-case-33208.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_v._Ohio

 

[Mainsail]

I know some of you are thinking this but are afraid to say it but a area of big concern that is making the news more and more is the color of persons skin.

So time to dig into the anecdote corner of my brain for another thrilling story of open carry.

This was about six or seven years ago; I needed to stop at the WalMart in Federal Way for something but I was stopped at the door by the greeter. He informed me that open carry wasn’t allowed in the store, and he knew because he was the only greeter in the history of WalMart to ace the greeter exam (no joke). A black man in front of me stopped to give the greeter some grief, saying that there was nothing illegal about open carry etc etc.

Later I ended up behind him in the checkout line. He told me he appreciated open carry, but as a black man he was too scared to do so. I let him know about the Terry rules, and that the police could not detain him or question him for mere open carry, regardless of his dress or skin pigmentation. Still, he said he wasn’t going to try. He expressed appreciation for me doing it because it raised the awareness of its lawful status, and the hope that if enough people were willing to OC then maybe someday he would feel comfortable being black and armed openly.

So, while true on the surface, open carry here in Washington is a lawful activity and as such isn’t grounds for a police detainment, there are people who fear the police stepping beyond the law. That there is fear should set off alarm bells to everyone who believes that the degree of skin pigmentation has nothing at all to do with the person’s character. The ignorants who believe otherwise should worry as well, since illegal police activity hurts all of us.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

I went to Walmart this evening, open carried, walked past a Sheriff Deputy who was on the phone just inside of the doors, picked up (long enough to give it a once over and set it back down where there was better lighting on the shelf) an out-of-box realistic-enough firearm, and even bought 300 rounds of .22lr.

It was like a trifecta

I'm sorry but I don't find your account credible

Mike

 

[Warp]

I'm sorry but I don't find your account credible

Mike

They had 2,000 rounds on the shelf at the time, it was even in the special Walmart promo boxes that just came out Saturday.

Cell phone cameras are great

 

[Leanwolf]

Open Carry Backfire.

Here is a story of a young man who was carrying his handgun openly and another man came up to him, pointed a gun at him and stole his handgun.

Sometimes things just don't work out, huh?



http://www.kptv.com/story/26729956/man-openly-carrying-new-gun-in-gresham-robbed-by-armed-man

L.W.

 

[Warp]

Here is a story of a young man who was carrying his handgun openly and another man came up to him, pointed a gun at him and stole his handgun.

Sometimes things just don't work out, huh?



http://www.kptv.com/story/26729956/man-openly-carrying-new-gun-in-gresham-robbed-by-armed-man

L.W.

Nothing works best 100% of the time, not even seat belts or airbags.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Here is a story of a young man who was carrying his handgun openly and another man came up to him, pointed a gun at him and stole his handgun.

Looks like maybe you lose either way when you OC. If the cops don't shoot you someone robs you because they know you have something of value.

 

[Warp]

Looks like maybe you lose either way when you OC. If the cops don't shoot you someone robs you because they know you have something of value.

What open carrier has been shot by police?

It's too bad there isn't a news article every time a crime or attempted crime is deterred by the presence of a carried firearm.

The REAL lesson from that story is situational awareness. It seems the individual who was relieved of his firearm failed the 'interview' and was thus held up at gunpoint. I mean, seriously, you're outside at 2 AM when a random guy comes up and asks for a cigarette...red flags and warning bells much? I can't promise anything, but I'll certainly wager that if he had responded appropriately to that the robbery would not have ever taken place. Clearly the conversation they had was not properly handled.

 

[silicosys4]

What open carrier has been shot by police?

It's too bad there isn't a news article every time a crime or attempted crime is deterred by the presence of a carried firearm.

The REAL lesson from that story is situational awareness. It seems the individual who was relieved of his firearm failed the 'interview' and was thus held up at gunpoint. I mean, seriously, you're outside at 2 AM when a random guy comes up and asks for a cigarette...red flags and warning bells much? I can't promise anything, but I'll certainly wager that if he had responded appropriately to that the robbery would not have ever taken place. Clearly the conversation they had was not properly handled.

There was recently a Wal mart shooting that happened that involved a man who was by all appearances open carrying. The gun in question was a BB gun, but if it were a real gun would have been perfectly legal. He was reported by a couple who called 911 to complain of a man waving a gun at people....which was debunked by surveillance video. From what I've read he was simply benignly carrying a toy he was planning on purchasing through the store.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/20...s-video-reveals-victim-never-pointed-his-gun/

But concerning the gun stolen from the open carrier,
I see this as a complete failure of several argument I've heard proponents of open carry use.
The thief was not deterred by the sight of the firearm. Quiet the opposite.
The added accessibility of the firearm was not of any help
This illustrates to me the foolishness of "showing your hand" so to speak, and gave the thief a clear tactical advantage.

 

[Warp]

I see this as a complete failure of several argument I've heard proponents of open carry use.
The thief was not deterred by the sight of the firearm. Quiet the opposite.
The added accessibility of the firearm was not of any help
This illustrates to me the foolishness of "showing your hand" so to speak, and gave the thief a clear tactical advantage.

Nothing works 100% of the time. This should be a pretty simple concept. Just like the example I gave...sometimes seat belts or airbags do more harm than good. Does that mean having and using them is a bad idea?

Added accessibility? Personally I think an openly carried handgun in a level II or III retention OWB holster is far more secure than a "concealed" (people print and have more tells than they realize IME) handgun in a level 0 retention open top IWB holster. Of course, not everybody uses a retention holster for open carry, or a retention holster with more than a simple and obvious thumb snap. Their call.

Again, it's too bad we don't have a news article every time open carry resulted in deterrence. I only know of one article where open carry deterred an armed robbery, it takes a very special set of circumstances for that to happen (by that I mean documented proof that the deterrence occurred, that is then turned into a widely spread article)


But hey, whether or not a person carries, what they carry, where they carry, how often they carry, how they carry, etc, are all personal choices to made by each individual. If you don't think open carry is a good idea, don't. Nothing wrong with that at all

 

[Warp]

I just saw you edited a new paragraph in

There was recently a Wal mart shooting that happened that involved a man who was by all appearances open carrying. The gun in question was a BB gun, but if it were a real gun would have been perfectly legal. He was reported by a couple who called 911 to complain of a man waving a gun at people....which was debunked by surveillance video. From what I've read he was simply benignly carrying a toy he was planning on purchasing through the store.

lol

Dude.

Please read this thread (this one, that we are currently in)

PS: When we talk about open carry, we are NOT talking about walking around with a rifle (or any other gun) in your hands. That isn't what people do or are referring to when they say "open carry" unless it is specifically mentioned, because very very VERY few people would ever do that.

 

[silicosys4]

Nothing works 100% of the time. This should be a pretty simple concept. Just like the example I gave...sometimes seat belts or airbags do more harm than good. Does that mean having and using them is a bad idea?

Added accessibility? Personally I think an openly carried handgun in a level II or III retention OWB holster is far more secure than a "concealed" (people print and have more tells than they realize IME) handgun in a level 0 retention open top IWB holster. Of course, not everybody uses a retention holster for open carry, or a retention holster with more than a simple and obvious thumb snap. Their call.

Again, it's too bad we don't have a news article every time open carry resulted in deterrence. I only know of one article where open carry deterred an armed robbery, it takes a very special set of circumstances for that to happen.


But hey, whether or not a person carries, what they carry, where they carry, how often they carry, how they carry, etc, are all personal choices to made by each individual. If you don't think open carry is a good idea, don't. Nothing wrong with that at all

Seat belts and airbags have been proven to be effective in their roles regardless of their failure rate.

I just saw you edited a new paragraph in

Yea. You asked "when has an open carrier been shot by police?"
I answered you. dude. Stay focused.

Anyways

Unfortunately there is no clear evidence that I have seen of open carry being more effective than concealed carry for any reason in an urban setting.

 

[Warp]

Seat belts and airbags have been proven to be effective in their roles regardless of their failure rate.

Unfortunately there is no clear evidence that I have seen of open carry being more effective than concealed carry for any reason in an urban setting.

Exactly. There is a failure rate. As with anything else. I am aware of nothing that works 100% of the time.

So don't open carry. It's totally your choice (where both are legal, that is).

 

[silicosys4]

So don't open carry. It's totally your choice (where both are legal, that is).

They are both legal where I'm at and I don't open carry.

Why would I? There is no reason to. Concealed carry gives you the tactical advantage of surprise close to 100% of the time if done right. Open carry gives you the advantage of surprise close to 0% of the time if done right...for what gain?

 

[JRH6856]

Well, the first rule is to carry. The second is to do it in whatever manner you legally can and which affords the most tactical advantage.

Concealed carry, where legal, may be the best tactical choice. When concealed carry is not legal or not an option, then legal open carry is the only choice. In some states (Texas), only long guns may be legally carried openly. So the question becomes whether open carry is a tactical advantage or disadvantage. Like silicosys4, I tend to see more disadvantages than advantages, other than the major advantage that it allows you to be armed. But it also requires greater awareness and proximity control and if these requirements are not met, the advantage of being armed may quickly become a negative.

 

[Warp]

They are both legal where I'm at and I don't open carry.

Why would I? [I have] no reason to.

Some people have reasons to. You are not one of those people. No big deal.

 

[silicosys4]

Some people have reasons to. You are not one of those people. No big deal.

Could you perhaps explain some of those reasons, why someone would open carry in an urban situation when concealed carry was also an option?
I'm confused as to why somebody who was concerned with their personal protection would choose one method that seemingly offers no benefits over the other, and is tactically less sound.

 

[Warp]

Could you explain those reasons, why someone would open carry in an urban situation when concealed carry was also an option?
I'm confused as to why somebody who was concerned with their personal protection would choose one method that seemingly offers no benefits over the other, and is tactically less sound

None of the holsters I can conceal in most weather offer level III retention.

The pistols I am most proficient with, with the best combination of capacity and cartridge, are not readily concealable most of the time.

Deterrence, like everything else, doesn't work 100% of the time, but I believe it to work a great deal of the time.

I'd rather deter something from happening than use the 'tactical advantage' of concealment to bring my pistol into play after something happened.

OWB is typically more comfortable than IWB.

I sometimes like to try and remind people that yes, regular people can do do carry guns. Lots of positive conversations have resulted.




If none of those things apply to you, so be it. Carry what you want how you want, it's your choice. There is no need to go on the offensive and tell everybody who does things differently from you that they are doing it wrong.

 

[basicblur]

Open carry may deter some (I remember reading about robbers skipping a Waffle House when they saw folks open carrying), and it may make you a target of others.

Trying to figure out criminals is like a box of chocolates (you know the rest).

I prefer CC, but am not opposed to OC, and have done so on a few occasions.

 

[zxcvbob]

Why would I? There is no reason to. Concealed carry gives you the tactical advantage of surprise close to 100% of the time if done right. Open carry gives you the advantage of surprise close to 0% of the time if done right...for what gain?

"Surprise" is a tactical advantage on offense, not defense. (I really don't care whether you OC or CC or don't carry at all, I just get tired of hearing about surprise)

Carry on.

 

[silicosys4]

"Surprise" is a tactical advantage on offense, not defense. (I really don't care whether you OC or CC or don't carry at all, I just get tired of hearing about surprise)

Carry on.

Really...you can't surprise someone with a gun they didn't know you had? A guy pulls a knife or gun on you and it wouldn't be defensive or a surprise to unholster a concealed firearm they thought you didn't have?
That seems to me to be a pretty flippant statement, and grossly inaccurate

 

[JRH6856]

"Surprise" is a tactical advantage on offense, not defense. (I really don't care whether you OC or CC or don't carry at all, I just get tired of hearing about surprise)

Carry on.

Then how about "concealment denies the aggressor the opportunity to fully prepare for the victim being armed thus denying the aggressor the tactical advantage of knowing exactly what he must overcome to prevail."

 

[CoalTrain49]

What open carrier has been shot by police?

Crawford. He was openly carrying a gun. At least that's what the police and the person who called him in thought. Why are all the OC protesters there at Wal Mart if OC isn't the issue?

 

[Warp]

Crawford. He was openly carrying a gun. At least that's what the police and the person who called him in thought. Why are all the OC protesters there at Wal Mart if OC isn't the issue?

Again...when people around here, or in any other firearms community talk about "open carry", they are not talking about carrying a rifle (or any other firearm) in public in their hands.

 

[silicosys4]

Again...when people around here, or in any other firearms community talk about "open carry", they are not talking about carrying a rifle (or any other firearm) in public in their hands.

You sure about that? Most of these pictures are from public "open carry" demonstrations or publicity events.