Open carry article

[monotonous_iterancy]

I've just finished reading a UK article about the open carry movement in America. As you could imagine from a British paper, the author seems bewildered by our culture. However, the article does bring up some good points of discussion.

The reason they’re here is this: a month earlier, a 38-year-old electrician called Daniel Romero walked into the centre of Harlingen with a rifle strapped to his back and the police had the audacity to reprimand him for alarming the public. They weren’t going to arrest him; they simply asked him to move on. But Romero refused, the situation escalated and he was strong-armed into the station.

Personally, I don't like the idea of open carry. It's needlessly provocative, and most importantly, it defeats the element of surprise that is the advantage of a CCW. Still, I'm all in favor of open-carry laws, it prevents prosecution in the event of a CCW accidentally being exposed.

That said, this situation in the article is exhibit A on what not to do. I know that people who open carry with rifles and such are doing so to make a point and inform people of their rights, *but* it's overly confrontational and makes us look bad to the people we're trying to persuade. That sort of advocacy is counter-productive.

In November, a few members of Moms Demand Action met at a Dallas restaurant when one of them spotted a group of 20 or so men and women in the car park outside carrying shotguns and semi-automatic rifles. It was a counter-demonstration by Open Carry Texas, but the women inside the Blue Mesa Grill claimed it was a show of force designed to intimidate them.

...C J Grisham told The New York Times at the time his gathering was peaceful and legal and that, “No matter what we do, [Moms Demand Action] is going to label us intimidating. It doesn’t matter how we carry, where we carry.”

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

Here's where the article gets more interesting -

Kellye Burke, a mother of two from Houston, joined Moms Demand Action shortly after Watts started the organisation and she now runs the Texas chapter from her home in Houston. What motivated her to join, she says, was a press conference given by Wayne LaPierre, head of the National Rifle Association, a week after Sandy Hook. “He said the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun,” Burke says. “You have a horrible tragedy and then tell everybody the only way to protect yourself is to buy more guns. It’s selling product. It’s very sinister and callous but that’s what it is.”

Far from being anti-gun, Burke says she considers herself pro-Second Amendment; that this battle shouldn’t be pitched as gun lovers versus gun haters.

“I bristle at the gun lobby shrouding themselves in the nomenclature of ‘gun rights advocates’,” she tells me. “I’m just as much for gun rights. But gun rights come with responsibility – and that’s the part completely lacking from the conversation. In Mothers Demand Action we have a lot of members who are politically conservative. But ask them if people should be able to open carry and they don’t want that.”

I doubt that she really believes in "responsibility", at least not by my definition. Responsibility means being safe, and I think it also means not trying to provoke a confrontation like some open-carry activists. *But* her use of "responsibility" is fallacious.

Burke grew up around guns in Texas. There were rifles and shotguns in her house when she was a child, she says, but she thinks a major change has taken place in the intervening years: “Open carry was originally in the context of hunting; in a rural setting. It’s offensive that this movement has really sprung up since Sandy Hook. Think about how disgusting that is; that their response to a massacre of Americans by their fellow citizens is to parade around with loaded weapons in public in urban settings. I don’t know what message they’re trying to send but these episodes they have are always in suburban areas – outside a Chipotle [restaurant], a Target or in a strip mall; places where women and children go. They’re gun advocates, not gun rights advocates.”

Burke says before the mid-Nineties, when concealed handgun licensing was introduced in Texas, people could carry a gun openly but they didn’t. “It was never an issue. You don’t see old-school Texans doing this; they’d consider it crass behaviour. This is a new phenomenon.”

Here's the best quote -

Gun rights advocates argue that such restrictions would simply make it more difficult for law-abiding citizens to get weapons, whereas criminals will get them regardless. Burke says the notion is ludicrous. “They’re saying there should be no regulation because people are going to break the law. Then we should have no laws for anything. They’re fighting the very thing that is designed to stop the ‘bad guys’ getting guns. If you can pass a background check then why are you flipping out about this?”

 

[RustyShackelford]

OCing a practical guide....

I used to be pro-CC(CCW only) for a long time. I agree it's best not to "startle the horses" in public by OC and it does present a distinct advantage in a critical incident but after carrying my M&P .45acp on a recent trip where OC was fully legal, I have a change in attitude.

It's a lot more easy & comfortable to just strap on a holster & magazine holder then go then fuss around with CC rigs or worry about sweaters/shirts covering the firearm or what some store clerk/passer-by may think.

I didn't get any strange looks or any lectures/finger-pointing either. Most people in the small town just went; "eh" & left.
I'm not a walking billboard for 2A issues or guns and I don't "engage" local LE or citizens to talk about "oath-takers" or "gun rights".
If a store patron or restaurant customer asked me about my pistol or wanted more details/advice, Id share it with them but I wouldn't OC for political reasons.

Id bet that if a few forum members who normally CC went out & OCed they'd see it's not that big a deal.

Rusty

 

[conw]

It's a lot more easy & comfortable to just strap on a holster & magazine holder then go then fuss around with CC rigs or worry about sweaters/shirts covering the firearm or what some store clerk/passer-by may think.

By that logic you could also be fine with mustard stains on your trousers or worse.

I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from OCing on this basis but it most certainly can affect social interaction negatively or at least be a huge distraction. Forget about merit of any other arguments for or against, that alone is reason enough for me to steer clear.

 

[NavyLCDR]

By that logic you could also be fine with mustard stains on your trousers or worse.

I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from OCing on this basis but it most certainly can affect social interaction negatively or at least be a huge distraction. Forget about merit of any other arguments for or against, that alone is reason enough for me to steer clear.

My experience after years of openly carrying has been just the opposite. At least 90% of the social interactions I have where the gun is mentioned are positive. Everything from a thumbs up to verbal "thank you's" and "way to go's". Of the 10% of interactions that have been negative (about 1 or 2 per year) - 4 out of 5 of those have been people who can't resist telling me that they carry their gun concealed and so should I.

My gun has been the source of many more positive interactions than negative ones....and if the person is going to instigate a negative interaction with me because of my gun, it's not like there was much possibility of us becoming close friends anyway.

 

[Water-Man]

I've been OC for many years. Not always but half of the time. I've never had an unpleasant encounter with LE while doing so.

Now, that's not to say it can't happen. There are always some areas where some cops get a little over zealous. Those are areas I avoid when OC.

There will always be arguments, both pro and con, regarding OC but one fact is undeniable. There are no absolutes one way or another.

Personally, I like not having to dress around it but most of all, I can draw alot faster and I like having more of the odds in my favor.

 

[32_d3gr33s]

Most people seem to hate on open carry, until they've actually done it for a while. They have a whole list of reasons of why someone shouldn't do it, but no evidence to back any of it up. Ive never had a single bad experience while open carrying. I open carry 75% of the time. Usually I CC when im in a hurry and don't have time for a lengthy conversation if something were to happen, and going somewhere where firearms are "prohibited" (no, not illegal, places such as the mall with no weapons policy), or if im just carrying in an ankle holster. Most people don't seem to notice (which is weird, my normal OC is a stainless 1911) or if they do, don't seem to care. I get a couple a week who stop and thank me, or just are curious. in 2 years, not 1 negative comment... that could change, and probably will. its much more comfortable, lets you carry more places (ie pistol free zones) and generally people seem more friendly...


Believe me though, there is a time and a place for everything. I don't think Long gun open carry is acceptable 90% of the time... Should you be able to do it? YES... Should you do it? Probably not. The videos of people open carrying AR's and Shotguns and video taping and then arguing with cops and spouting off all the laws don't tend to help much.

 

[TRX]

>places where women and children go.

A rather sexist remark there. Women can carry guns, and a large percentage of licensed CCWers are women.

And, within my personal memory, children carrying guns was nothing to get worked up about either.

 

[Tirod]

The problem with open carry is largely with gun owners who won't. The general public is quite used to it - cops carry open every day, all day. Nobody complains about cops doing it.

That goes to the real issue - somebody can't trust the general public to do what is right and feels the need to control them and their activities. They are reacting fear with the assumption there will be a negative reaction, no different than some who react in fear the carrier has evil intent. Further, they have go out of their way to explain why they think it's wrong and attempt to proselytize those they think might participate.

In other words, they are doing exactly the same thing - making a fuss about open carry and attempting to convince the pubic of their view. It's just the opposite side of the open rifle carriers, they prefer no visible carry at all.

So, it's just another bunch of people trying to tell me what to do, regardless of what I think about it.

I don't open carry - unless I'm taking it to the car going to a place where I can shoot. I have seen an exponential rise in it locally and it doesn't bother me any. Every open carrier I have met has been friendly and focused on what they were doing, not attempting to propagandize anyone around them. Quite the opposite of some other demographic groups or types of vehicle owners, who are stereotypically jerks in public. That's a deliberate adoption of a persona, how they think they get respect, which they are confusing with fear.

I wish there were more open carriers in my community, and considering the number of confrontations in the paper, others would be better served doing it, too. It is very much a do unto others as you would have done to you issue. Those of us who abstain from it are being considerate, those who carry are being equally considerate in their behavior, in my experience.

If enough open carriers like that are the dominant stereotype, I speculate that in one generation, we will have a community who won't blink twice about it. And that is the real goal in the long run, to view guns without fear at all.

Yes, if we all have a gun, then, that very visible presence does go a long way to making society much politer.

 

[btg3]

The irrational fear of guns in our society is infringement -- that is largely perpetuated by liberal media. With such bias continually mis-informing successive generations, 2A rights are not guaranteed and constant vigilance is needed to preserve this essential underpinning of our freedom.

And FWIW, convenience, comfort, and personal preference are poor justification for either side of the issue.

 

[buck460XVR]

Most people seem to hate on open carry, until they've actually done it for a while. They have a whole list of reasons of why someone shouldn't do it, but no evidence to back any of it up.

.....must be why they feel the need to use an article from the UK to support their views.....and then claim OC is great for when they can't keep their CW properly concealed. All I can say is wow.

Like many here, while I have a CWC permit and generally carry concealed, my state allows open carry and I do OC occasionally. I have talked freely and had friendly conversations with LEOs while OC and the only response was "nice rig". I have yet to have anyone over-react, and it seems the normal reaction is no reaction. The biggest whiners and protests come from those that are supposedly pro-gun. While they scream about not wanting to make compromises and giving any ground to the antis, they have no problem with wanting me to compromise and give ground. They don't want background checks, they don't want mag capacity limits, they don't want any limitations on the guns they want, but I need to keep my guns under wrap, except in the case where I'm as inept as they are and it accidentally gets seen? What a crock.

 

[RustyShackelford]

post #4 & post 9.....

I disagree with the remarks of post #4.
A OC is not automatically going to lead to a - soc interaction.
If OC is "street legal" or the gun owner/armed citizen isn't threatening or menacing then what another person says or does is insignificant.
A few years ago, I had a couple(male/female) who said they were active duty USMC(Marines) give me a hassle over my firearm & other OCed weapons while I did a hotel security detail. I kept my cool, , & politely explained to the young couple that I was IAW all state laws, SOPs & mandated regulations.
I also informed them I(as a licensed armed officer) was only beholden to my employers/mgmt, sworn LE officers and/or the state Div of Licensing officials.

As for post #4, there have been documented incidents where both uniformed & "soft clothes" cops with sidearms(guns) were either asked to leave a property or were hassled.
There is a Youtube clip of a Portland OR patrol officer who got a cup of coffee & was asked to leave by the cafe manager.
Another more recent event was in IN or IL. A small town Denny's manager asked a group of tactical unit detectives(armed but with badges/vests/weapons) to leave. The mgr told a media reporter he felt the cops were "intimidating" & might offend the other diners.
The local PD chief later ordered all the sworn personnel not to eat there. A general manager & corp exec later apologized formally for the Denny's staff, saying the police could eat there anytime.

edit: The Denny's incident with the police detectives was in Belleville IL on 01/02/2013. The Belleville PD chief was Bill Clay.

 

[Reloader81]

I've never carried openly, but have considered it. I don't have a permit to carry concealed, nor am I willing to support the concept of a permit to carry. I don't consider the right to keep and bear arms compatible with a permit. So if I carry, it will be open.

One interesting aspect of the OC/CC issue are the hassles with abiding by either, i.e. keeping it concealed or keeping it open.

 

[Mainsail]

...most importantly, it defeats the element of surprise that is the advantage of a CCW.

Uh...open carry has the same element of surprise that CC has, it's just "sprung" at a different time. OC springs its surprise before the attack, CC springs its surprise after the attack has begun. So it's up to you to decide when the surprise is better.

 

[NavyLCDR]

And FWIW, convenience, comfort, and personal preference are poor justification for either side of the issue.

If you are talking about the convenience, comfort and personal preference of others being poor justification for either side of the issue, then I would agree.

If you are talking about the convenience, comfort and personal preference of the person carrying the gun being poor justification, then I would have to disagree.

If it is convenient, comfortable, and the person can legally carry the gun in the manner they choose they are more likely to carry their gun vice leave it at home. While I have chosen to open carry because in my location and situation that is the method that I have carefully evaluated to be what will keep my family the safest. However, in order to carry my gun all I have to do is slide the paddle holster over my belt and go. If I am mowing the yard and run out of gas it is much more likely that I will grab my gun and clip it on my belt as well as my car keys to run to the local (and overpriced) gas station for lawn mower gas.

If I had to conceal the gun, that situation would involve at least having to put on an extra/different shirt to cover the gun and since I would be returning to continue to mow the yard, it is unlikely I would do so.

and most importantly, it defeats the element of surprise that is the advantage of a CCW.

Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

 

[Red Wind]

Element of Surprise: a mythical element that many believe has the same affect upon criminals that Kryptonite has upon Superman.

Now, that was cool!

 

[627PCFan]

Going back to the original article, I think there is a big difference between handgun OC and Long gun OC. There is a huge divide among the OC crowd on this basis as well. For someone to tote a AR or Shotgun around slung during daily rounds, I think everyone should be alarmed on what their motivation is. Handgun OC not so much.

 

[Mainsail]

Going back to the original article, I think there is a big difference between handgun OC and Long gun OC. There is a huge divide among the OC crowd on this basis as well. For someone to tote a AR or Shotgun around slung during daily rounds, I think everyone should be alarmed on what their motivation is. Handgun OC not so much.

In some locations the people fighting to reclaim their rights don't have the option of handgun OC- Texas comes to mind. You see here in WA, it was always legal to OC your handgun, but individual police officers decided that it should be or must be illegal, so they harassed and threatened OCers whenever they could. We fought that by lawful and peaceful OC and we won. Police harassment is almost unheard of now.

Ask yourself, if the legislature in your state passed a law that said it was illegal to OC a handgun, would you be willing to risk arrest and prosecution by OCing in protest? We could protest police harassment here by OCing because the OC was legal and the harassment was not. So in some states the only way they can protest is via long gun OC.

 

[mnhntr]

I have 2 thoughts on OC. The first is if everyone who carried a firearm, did so openly the culture of "oh my god he/she has a gun" would end rather quickly and carrying would be more accepted in a quick period of time. The second is that I do not need or want the hassle of officers, wannabes, or activists constantly bothering me.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

I CC daily. My OC experiences are incidental to errands/stops to or from hiking/camping excursions with my hiking rig on my belt (previously a Glock 20, currently a Ruger SuperRedhawk Alaskan and fitted Simply Rugged pancake holster).

They have all been completely totally non-eventful. I've had a realtor showing my late wife and I (and others) investment properties have a 1911 rig set up in his door map pocket.

I have a couple thoughts:
1. Gun rights will be in less danger if guns are re-normalized like they were even recently (Urban Highschool shooting teams, kids free to play with toys).
2. In places where open carry is legal (but only if you don't actually do it), it is really illegal and I support advocates open carrying. With the sole exception of California (a minor loss since it was only unloaded OC that was legal) it has been all victories.

Mike

 

[BSA1]

Personally, I don't like the idea of open carry. It's needlessly provocative, and most importantly, it defeats the element of surprise that is the advantage of a CCW.

You are merely repeating the same arguments that were made when States began to pass concealed carry laws. Long on emotion and short on facts. Shoot-outs, murder rate increasing, folks packing iron would be more aggressive, etc. As we now know none of that has happened. In fact concealed carry has become so widely accepted all 50 States have C.C. laws at least on paper.

The surest way to lose a right is not to exercise it. For decades the States did not exercise their rights in the 10th Amendment. Case in point look at the States fighting the Federal Government trying to stop the overly expansive and expensive laws that now regulate most of our daily lives.

In July open carry becomes legal in Kansas. I intend to exercise my right to do so. If by doing so makes you upset then don’t look.

As for packing long gun vs. handgun I don’t consider carrying a long gun while shopping, getting in and out of the vehicle and bringing into action if needed practical. My primary summer o.c. is a J-Frame stainless steel 38 simply because it is easy to carry, easy to get in and out of the truck with and doesn’t get in the way of my activities. I also have a pair of very nice tuned 1911’s one of which I may carry after I get a holster I like.

 

[Yetiman]

"I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from OCing on this basis but it most certainly can affect social interaction negatively or at least be a huge distraction. Forget about merit of any other arguments for or against, that alone is reason enough for me to steer clear."

In a lot of places around the country the same could be said of wearing a leather (much less a fur) coat in public. Does that mean I shouldn't wear a leather coat because it might make someone uncomfortable or 'affect social interaction negatively'?

It has always been legal to open carry in Wisconsin. Concealed carry has only been legal since November of 2011.

I live near Milwaukee but have remote properties in Northern Wi, where I regularly see coyote's, black bears and some freaky looking party people going in and out of the public forest adjacent to one of the properties.
In the past I used to open carry in Northern Wi, concealing when on my own land. The only negative reaction I had was a DNR warden who questioned the holstered gun. I replied "are you trying to tell me that is illegal?"and the question really confused him. He honestly didn't know, and assumed it was illegal. He didn't detain me, and a few days later stopped to apologize, but told me he still didn't like seeing it.

I have also open carried from time to time in the Milwaukee area (before and since CC became legal) and have never had more than a startled look. When I give no reaction other than a nod and a 'hey there' nothing else is said.

That said, I do conceal 95% of the time now that it is legal and generally only open carry in the car (for easier access) or where I am not likely to interact with others.

 

[buck460XVR]

It has always been legal to open carry in Wisconsin. Concealed carry has only been legal since November of 2011.


In the past I used to open carry in Northern Wi, concealing when on my own land. The only negative reaction I had was a DNR warden who questioned the holstered gun. I replied "are you trying to tell me that is illegal?"and the question really confused him. He honestly didn't know, and assumed it was illegal. He didn't detain me, and a few days later stopped to apologize, but told me he still didn't like seeing it.

A dozen or so years ago while deer hunting with a 686 holstered on my hip, I was approached by a warden because my orange vest was covering the top of the gun, thus there was no part of the revolver exposed. He explained, even by accident, as long as it was loaded, it was still considered a concealed firearm, and at that time, illegal to do in Wisconsin. He did not ticket me, but gave me a warning and suggested I cut the bottom of the holster so that the tip of the barrel was exposed or make sure some other way that some part of the gun was always exposed and visible.

 

[monotonous_iterancy]

....must be why they feel the need to use an article from the UK to support their views.....and then claim OC is great for when they can't keep their CW properly concealed. All I can say is wow.

Like many here, while I have a CWC permit and generally carry concealed, my state allows open carry and I do OC occasionally. I have talked freely and had friendly conversations with LEOs while OC and the only response was "nice rig". I have yet to have anyone over-react, and it seems the normal reaction is no reaction. The biggest whiners and protests come from those that are supposedly pro-gun. While they scream about not wanting to make compromises and giving any ground to the antis, they have no problem with wanting me to compromise and give ground. They don't want background checks, they don't want mag capacity limits, they don't want any limitations on the guns they want, but I need to keep my guns under wrap, except in the case where I'm as inept as they are and it accidentally gets seen? What a crock.

I never said that the article reflected my views. It doesn't reflect me at all. I just thought it would create an interesting discussion. Furthermore, I didn't claim to be against open-carry at all. I said that "personally", meaning in my opinion, this is why don't personally like the idea of open carry. I'm not stating it as fact, and I'm open to having my mind changed, which some posts here are doing. But I don't support any laws against it under any circumstances. I simply stated that one big positive thing to open-carry not being illegal is that it can prevent someone from being charged by overzealous officials with brandishing in the event that they are somehow "made".

I'm not saying that you need to keep a gun concealed, and I'm not calling anyone inept. I was simply stating my opinion, from someone who doesn't carry a gun at all. I'm not 21 yet.

If someone open-carries while going about their daily business, that's great, it can reduce the fear around guns. If someone is doing it solely to make a political statement and provoke a confrontation, then that's counter-productive and hurts our cause.

I come from a perspective of having no first-hand experience with OC. I've never actually seen anyone open-carrying in my town. I don't think I've ever seen someone open carry in public. The only time I hear about it is here, where I get the impression that people are courteous, or in the news/on Youtube, where people are doing so to be provocative.

 

[BSA1]

To the contrary you have seen men and women open carrying on a regular basis...police officers. In fact a lot of police officers in the large nearby city open carry wearing causal (Dockers) slacks and a sport shirt. The shirt has Police Department emboired on the upper right front above the pocket with no metal badge. There is no way looking at them from the rear or side they are a LEO. You have merely been condition that it is Ok for them to O.C.