True. But I'm not going to devote much time trying to convert someone who thinks the sight of a gun on the hip of anyone other than an LEO identifies them as a bad guy.
Open carry is just stupid
- Thread starter castile
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AlexanderA
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If you lived in a place like northern Virginia (D.C. suburbs), you would.
Yes, that was the condition I was referring to in my earlier post.
Open carriers lose the element of surprise. They're subject to gun grabs. They're the first target. For the sake of argument, why do cops open carry?
Would cops be safer if crooks didn't know which ones were armed and where their guns were?
Same question about security guards.
Would cops be safer if crooks didn't know which ones were armed and where their guns were?
Same question about security guards.
Why? I have friends and relatives in that area. I don't think the number of Soccer Moms there is significantly different that other areas of the country. Are they given more influence there? Do they get more votes there?
Their uniforms give away the fact that they are all armed, and they cannot reasonably conceal the gun ammo, cuffs, bato, and less lethal tools
Not in England they don't. If cops didn't all carry guns, and they were concealed, they would be safer from gun grabs, like us citizens, right?
And not all cops are in uniform. I see detectives in plain clothes or polo shirts open carrying all the time. All they would have to do is unclip the badge off their belt and conceal the gun.
Unless of course, there is some deterrent effect in knowing the police are armed.
Flat Rock
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I trained with a Federal Air Marshal a few years back.
These Guys are the best trained shooters I have seen in public service.
and some of the takeaways were:
Shot Placement is paramount, you are responsible for every round you fire.
I ran drills constantly and was able to pass the Air Marshall qualification course of fire (VERY demanding)
Accuracy and Speed win gunfights
Keep your weapon HIDDEN!! includes printing, buy clothes that hide your gun better.
Be unassuming in your manner, and dress.
Dry Fire Practice is essential
Practice Situational Awareness in public, you will be surprised what you see people doing when you learn to observe them.
He consistently reinforced the need to keep my gun hidden, as this gives you the upper hand in a confrontation.
So, do I think that open carry in public is stupid? YES
These Guys are the best trained shooters I have seen in public service.
and some of the takeaways were:
Shot Placement is paramount, you are responsible for every round you fire.
I ran drills constantly and was able to pass the Air Marshall qualification course of fire (VERY demanding)
Accuracy and Speed win gunfights
Keep your weapon HIDDEN!! includes printing, buy clothes that hide your gun better.
Be unassuming in your manner, and dress.
Dry Fire Practice is essential
Practice Situational Awareness in public, you will be surprised what you see people doing when you learn to observe them.
He consistently reinforced the need to keep my gun hidden, as this gives you the upper hand in a confrontation.
So, do I think that open carry in public is stupid? YES
Bazoo
Member
I've open carried some in town. I have had many times that someone saw my gun, then came up to me and asked me what they need to do to be able to carry too. Many people don't know that they can own and carry a firearm. That reason alone is a good reason to OC, but you have to be personable and be able to answer questions in an informed manner.
Does OC make you a target? Not any more than normal, I'm already a target because I'm 6'5" and 330 pounds. Situational awareness is more important than concealment.
I was open carrying once, and a guy comes up to me and said "Hey man, I give CCDW classes, if you get a license you can conceal your gun." I told him, I already had a license, and I was open carrying out of choice. We ended up becoming friends, and since he was a CCDW Trainer, I took his class and became a state certified firearms instructor, licensed to give Concealed Carry Deadly Weapons classes. I've since let my certification expire. If I hadn't been open carrying that day, I likely wouldn't have met Don, nor become a firearms instructor.
Does OC make you a target? Not any more than normal, I'm already a target because I'm 6'5" and 330 pounds. Situational awareness is more important than concealment.
I was open carrying once, and a guy comes up to me and said "Hey man, I give CCDW classes, if you get a license you can conceal your gun." I told him, I already had a license, and I was open carrying out of choice. We ended up becoming friends, and since he was a CCDW Trainer, I took his class and became a state certified firearms instructor, licensed to give Concealed Carry Deadly Weapons classes. I've since let my certification expire. If I hadn't been open carrying that day, I likely wouldn't have met Don, nor become a firearms instructor.
No, but the ones who carry openly are.
Old Dog
Member
While so many love to point out the (relatively) few instances where open-carriers have been relieved of their handguns -- and really, if you read the new stories that contain accurate information, you'll note that (1) there's ample evidence to suggest that most gun-carriers who have their firearms "grabbed" or taken at gunpoint are concealed carriers demonstrating ineffective concealment (i.e., printing or inadvertent exposure) and (2) law enforcement officers.
The concept of the open-carrier being the guy who is targeted because he's identified as a man with a gun and gets shot first by bad guys in any robbery or bad situation is almost amusing, as many propose this as a major disadvantage to open-carry, yet it's never documented to have happened (other than say, some armored-car robberies, some responding cops and bank security guards, never to a bystander citizen who just happens to be O/Cing. If someone can link to such a case, kindly do so, as long as it's only about a private O/Cing citizen, not a cop, security guard or armored car guard.
The negative image of the stereotypical open-carrying big-bellied slob sporting a plumber's crack, wandering the aisles of the local Wal-Mart with a cheap pistol in a floppy Uncle Mike's nylon holster dangling from a thin cheap belt is where everyone's minds seem to go when they think of open carry, and no, that image doesn't inspire confidence. And any one of us can list a myriad of perceived tactical disadvantages for the practice.
Yet, open carry is NOT stupid. To suggest that one mode of carrying a firearm (concealed) is "correct" and the "right way" to carry a firearm, while stating that the other mode -- unconcealed -- is "stupid" is all part of that slippery slope. You want to send the message to the anti-gun factions, the gun controllers and those one the fence that our own community has tiers of how to correctly exercise our Constitutional right?
If open carry is done right, it sends a message to the general public that we're a country built on firearms ownership. It's a symbolic gesture that encourages conversation about gun rights and the Second Amendment
The more open carriers go forth responsibly practicing open carry -- where legal -- with good equipment (retention holsters) and training (weapons retention), the more some (will never be all) civilians and law enforcement could come to see this as a normal practice instead of something creepy, weird or dangerous.
There's a time and place for open carry, even in public. My opinion on this has definitely evolved, even since I've been a member of this forum over the last twenty years or so. O/C is not uncommon up here, even on the wet (liberal) side of this state, and I've seen it practiced in manners which I considered responsible. I say, have at it, wherever legal. This whole idea that most in our own (the RKBA supporters) community have accepted -- that we must hide and/or cover up the fact that we own firearms and may carry them, is starting to seem really antithetical to the concept of promoting and exercising a right.
But yeah, I'd agree that if one is worried about the response from one's local soccer moms, you shouldn't be open-carrying. Or be caught driving a motor vehicle powered by fossil fuels. Or wear your red MAGA cap in public. Or make your opinion heard at your local school board meeting. Or be seen buying steaks and domestic beer in the Safeway check-out line. Or let anyone ever outside your circle of trust find out that you own -- gasp! -- guns, and actually like shooting them.
The concept of the open-carrier being the guy who is targeted because he's identified as a man with a gun and gets shot first by bad guys in any robbery or bad situation is almost amusing, as many propose this as a major disadvantage to open-carry, yet it's never documented to have happened (other than say, some armored-car robberies, some responding cops and bank security guards, never to a bystander citizen who just happens to be O/Cing. If someone can link to such a case, kindly do so, as long as it's only about a private O/Cing citizen, not a cop, security guard or armored car guard.
The negative image of the stereotypical open-carrying big-bellied slob sporting a plumber's crack, wandering the aisles of the local Wal-Mart with a cheap pistol in a floppy Uncle Mike's nylon holster dangling from a thin cheap belt is where everyone's minds seem to go when they think of open carry, and no, that image doesn't inspire confidence. And any one of us can list a myriad of perceived tactical disadvantages for the practice.
Yet, open carry is NOT stupid. To suggest that one mode of carrying a firearm (concealed) is "correct" and the "right way" to carry a firearm, while stating that the other mode -- unconcealed -- is "stupid" is all part of that slippery slope. You want to send the message to the anti-gun factions, the gun controllers and those one the fence that our own community has tiers of how to correctly exercise our Constitutional right?
If open carry is done right, it sends a message to the general public that we're a country built on firearms ownership. It's a symbolic gesture that encourages conversation about gun rights and the Second Amendment
The more open carriers go forth responsibly practicing open carry -- where legal -- with good equipment (retention holsters) and training (weapons retention), the more some (will never be all) civilians and law enforcement could come to see this as a normal practice instead of something creepy, weird or dangerous.
There's a time and place for open carry, even in public. My opinion on this has definitely evolved, even since I've been a member of this forum over the last twenty years or so. O/C is not uncommon up here, even on the wet (liberal) side of this state, and I've seen it practiced in manners which I considered responsible. I say, have at it, wherever legal. This whole idea that most in our own (the RKBA supporters) community have accepted -- that we must hide and/or cover up the fact that we own firearms and may carry them, is starting to seem really antithetical to the concept of promoting and exercising a right.
But yeah, I'd agree that if one is worried about the response from one's local soccer moms, you shouldn't be open-carrying. Or be caught driving a motor vehicle powered by fossil fuels. Or wear your red MAGA cap in public. Or make your opinion heard at your local school board meeting. Or be seen buying steaks and domestic beer in the Safeway check-out line. Or let anyone ever outside your circle of trust find out that you own -- gasp! -- guns, and actually like shooting them.
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Well said Old Dog. And in particular your last paragraph! I find notably bothersome the concept put forward with the op's premise that rights are somehow 'majority dependent'............if that is so, then we in effect have no 'rights', and the soccer moms prevail.
What's the phrase, 'tyranny of the majority'...........accept that and you might as well ditch the electoral college too as it well fit's the logic of that op's post! Anybody here good for that?
What's the phrase, 'tyranny of the majority'...........accept that and you might as well ditch the electoral college too as it well fit's the logic of that op's post! Anybody here good for that?
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The Night Rider
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1. This is not going to end well.
2. Paragraphs are a thing bro.
Those polos are a uniform
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I reached for something on the shelf in our favorite grocery some time back, and my pistol was momentarily uncovered.
I did not notice it at the time, but a young employee who was home from college at the time saw the pistol, panicked. and ran into the back. Other employees who knew of my having stopped a robbery in the store tried to calm her down, but she quit her job and stormed out.
When her father came in to complain, the managers gave their side. But they never came back.
When concealed carry was made lawful here years ago, at least one major grocery chain posted against it. I refused to patronize it. The signs came down, o[em carry was made lawful for permitted carriers, and--now the sores have signs against open carry.
It seems that too many people chose to "exercise their rights" in a manner that worried customers.
I did not notice it at the time, but a young employee who was home from college at the time saw the pistol, panicked. and ran into the back. Other employees who knew of my having stopped a robbery in the store tried to calm her down, but she quit her job and stormed out.
When her father came in to complain, the managers gave their side. But they never came back.
When concealed carry was made lawful here years ago, at least one major grocery chain posted against it. I refused to patronize it. The signs came down, o[em carry was made lawful for permitted carriers, and--now the sores have signs against open carry.
It seems that too many people chose to "exercise their rights" in a manner that worried customers.
The Night Rider
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Proves or supports?
bassjam
Member
Do you care to share?
The person who open carries may not be attacked at all because of the open display of a weapon
The concealed carrier may be seen as a soft target and attacked and they may never get the chance to draw.
For both of the above situations the opposite could also easily be true. The open carrier could be a target and the concealed carrier may successfully thwart an attack. The point is that the issue isn't black and white. Fight for the freedom of people to bear arms in whichever way they see fit and then make the choice that you feel is best for you.
The concealed carrier may be seen as a soft target and attacked and they may never get the chance to draw.
For both of the above situations the opposite could also easily be true. The open carrier could be a target and the concealed carrier may successfully thwart an attack. The point is that the issue isn't black and white. Fight for the freedom of people to bear arms in whichever way they see fit and then make the choice that you feel is best for you.
dh1633pm
Contributing Member
I don't carry concealed. Too many places where its illegal. I carry open on my own property. It is against the law here to carry open in public. I say to each their own, balanced with the comments made above. You can get shot for carrying open or concealed (if concealed accidentally becomes visible). Some people are just crazy. Let common sense rule. Like someone who commented above, preaching to the choir.
The Night Rider
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The majority of my open carry experience was in conjunction with my being a security guard.
There is something about a security guard uniform that gives everybody around you the idea that they can talk whatever **** they want to talk to you without consequence.
I can't count the number of times I've heard "That gun's not real." " That gun's not loaded." "I'm going to beat your ass and take that gun." "What makes you think you need (or are qualified) to carry that gun?" (Because your employer is paying for armed security and I've passed the state requirements?)
And because I was a security guard and the customer/client is always right I had to stand there and take it without clapping back.
I also had a couple of occasions where somebody tried to take the gun off me at work and they weren't playing.
Those experiences have colored my view of me open carrying. I don't particularly care what you do but I'm not participating.
The one thing that I really don't like about people who open carry is when I see somebody walk right past a sign that says "No open carry on these premises." open carrying but I'm not irritated at them for open carrying per se it's the same irritation Iused to get at the homeless people that I had to take off property four or five times and they knew they weren't supposed to be there.
There is something about a security guard uniform that gives everybody around you the idea that they can talk whatever **** they want to talk to you without consequence.
I can't count the number of times I've heard "That gun's not real." " That gun's not loaded." "I'm going to beat your ass and take that gun." "What makes you think you need (or are qualified) to carry that gun?" (Because your employer is paying for armed security and I've passed the state requirements?)
And because I was a security guard and the customer/client is always right I had to stand there and take it without clapping back.
I also had a couple of occasions where somebody tried to take the gun off me at work and they weren't playing.
Those experiences have colored my view of me open carrying. I don't particularly care what you do but I'm not participating.
The one thing that I really don't like about people who open carry is when I see somebody walk right past a sign that says "No open carry on these premises." open carrying but I'm not irritated at them for open carrying per se it's the same irritation Iused to get at the homeless people that I had to take off property four or five times and they knew they weren't supposed to be there.
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There hasn't been a new thread started on the subject of open carry for almost 3 weeks! I was concerned there for a bit that we'd resolved the issue. Guess I needn't have worried. 
www.activeresponsetraining.net
@castile, just out of curiosity, what do you hope to accomplish with this thread?
Sure. Lot's. I've posted a few in several of the some 800+ threads we've had on the subject. Here's an article with a list of links with some instances:
Friends Don't Let Friends Open Carry
Written by Greg Ellifritz It's no secret that I'm not a fan of open carry (carrying an unconcealed handgun or long gun in public). Except in a hunting context or in very rural
www.activeresponsetraining.net
@castile, just out of curiosity, what do you hope to accomplish with this thread?
To be fair, there is a pretty significant difference depending on the area you're in. I can go to any bank here in town and talk to the lady behind the counter and there's a good 75+% chance that she has at least hunted at some point in her life and there's a 100% chance that she knows multiple people who do. There's also a 100% chance that she sees a non-LEO carrying a gun at least several times a week. Same with the "soccer moms" in town. I haven't spent much time in the DC metro area, but I'd be willing to bet that the same cannot be said of that area.
I do understand that you're talking about your state. It might be worth pointing out however, that in the vast majority of the US, open carry in public is perfectly legal.
Flat Rock
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A big part of carrying concealed vs OC is remaining the "Grey Man"
A gun on your hip telegraphs your capability, but not your intent.
I dont wear a BJJ, Krav Maga. or other "tactical" t-shirts either, although I am versed in them.
Those that know will get it, that it is tactically better to be underestimated than overestimated.
Those who want to posture, or broadcast their gun ownership status ( think Glock. SIG stickers in the back window of your truck) are generally not serious practitioners of the fighting arts.
The serious, and deadly guy is the one in the Hawaiian shirt and shorts who carries a gun and REALLY knows how to use it (among other things)
But, by all means, lets hear more about how open carrying a bersa in an uncle mikes holster to walmart is somehow helping our position as gun owners......
A gun on your hip telegraphs your capability, but not your intent.
I dont wear a BJJ, Krav Maga. or other "tactical" t-shirts either, although I am versed in them.
Those that know will get it, that it is tactically better to be underestimated than overestimated.
Those who want to posture, or broadcast their gun ownership status ( think Glock. SIG stickers in the back window of your truck) are generally not serious practitioners of the fighting arts.
The serious, and deadly guy is the one in the Hawaiian shirt and shorts who carries a gun and REALLY knows how to use it (among other things)
But, by all means, lets hear more about how open carrying a bersa in an uncle mikes holster to walmart is somehow helping our position as gun owners......
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