Opinion Poll on Massad Ayoob

[FPrice]

Albert...

Please do not take any of what I said as a personal attack, it was not meant as such. I apologize if taken that way.

It was not taken as a personal attack in any way, shape, or manner. I took it as a very thoughtful and reasoned response explaining your position and your personal knowledge of Ayoob. In fact I was very happy to hear from you. I hope you don't "shut up" but continue to bring your voice to the table.

 

[logical]

As the poll stands now, 27 actual customers have voted. Six of those (22%) had a negative opinion of him. Not sure what that means but I do know if he was running a fruit stand he'd be out of business in pretty short order with that kind of satisfaction percentage.

 

[Old Guy]

The instant you give an opinion, on anything, any where, you have placed yourself in the line of fire of all the people who have never been in that position in their lives.

The very first class you teach on self defense with a firearm puts you into a box! You have to show the class (of say ten students) your opinion on 9mm V .45! Stance, revolver V semi-auto, etc: the draw can have you passing on a method you will use for ever! If you believe in it.

Expand the one on one type of opinions into the arena of publishing books and articles on the self same subjects! Your detractors and backers also expand massively.

Suffice to say Mas Ayoob has his heart in the right place, can shoot well, and is not averse to giving opinions, and making money whilst doing so, none of his articles that I have ever read have been of a nature that could be construed as being wrong, could cause you to be arrested, or injured in a confrontation IMHO.

My Dad had a saying, "If tha cant say somthin nice, say newt" (Lancashire dialect) Might fit this situation don't you think?

 

[FPrice]

Old Guy...

My Dad had a saying, "If tha cant say somthin nice, say newt" (Lancashire dialect) Might fit this situation don't you think?

One would hope that good manners would prevail.

However...playing the Devil's Advocate...

Once you do place yourself in the arena of ideas, especially for commerce such as Ayoob and others have, you do open yourself up for analysis, and ultimately judgement on what you present and how you present it.

Such analysis and judgement can be presented in either a positive or a negative way, and I am not talking about whether you agree or not. You can disagree with someone, yet put it in terms that are not insulting or duragatory. This is what I am trying to encourage and hopefully accomplishing.

 

[JimC]

I voted #3 due to more than one personal encounter with him.

He's a complete self centered, egomaniac assh*%# who thrives on having his own entourage follow him about at matches, public gatherings, etc.!

It's too bad that what knowledge he possesses is over shadowed by his negative, I know it all personality. He will plain out ignore anyone present that knows what they are speaking of in regard to the topic at hand.

 

[buzz_knox]

He's a complete self centered, egomaniac assh*%# who thrives on having his own entourage follow him about at matches, public gatherings, etc.!

It's too bad that what knowledge he possesses is over shadowed by his negative, I know it all personality. He will plain out ignore anyone present that knows what they are speaking of in regard to the topic at hand.

There must be a couple of Ayoobs floating around, as the times I've been around him there has been no entourage, and he fully listened to every question, even the most inane ones (yes, that would have been mine).

 

[JimC]

There must be a couple of Ayoobs floating around, as the times I've been around him there has been no entourage, and he fully listened to every question, even the most inane ones (yes, that would have been mine).

Well, you'll just have to take my word for it. My last encounter with him was out in WA state and I was working for a major firearms company in the LE division.

He had no fewer than a dozen people following him around. His advice to them on our firearms put out for demo was way off base and totally contrary to any teaching. His "demo" with one was pathetic at best.

 

[FPrice]

Jim C...

Well, you'll just have to take my word for it.

We have to take your word for it becuase we (I) have no way to check it out, nor would I want to. That's would be insulting to you plus a heck of a workload for me.

However, are you willing to take others' word that they had very positive expeiences with him? At the same face value you would want for your experience?

 

[24kshooter]

IMO he has been consistant over the years - which is good and bad. When you listen to a gaggle of LEO's I do not believe his head is much bigger than the average LEO's head is now days. SWAT this and SWAT that - every podunk village has a SWAT team and equipment. When society went from developing peace officers to stamping out trained LEO's there has been a significent degradation.

 

[Gewehr98]

Maybe it was because I was paying him and his staff...

But as an LFI and LFI-II graduate, I found that Mr. Ayoob was totally courteous, professional, and personable. I'm sure he has "off" days like the rest of us, so I don't hold that against him. Therefore, I voted a "1", Frosty!

 

[Bud Light]

Is'nt he a reserve officer on the mean streets of Grafton NH?

 

[pax]

Bud Light ~

You pulled up this ancient thread to ask that?

Yes, Massad Ayoob is merely a part-time cop in a miniscule town in New Hampshire. He's the training officer for his department, with the rank of captain, and he's been a LEO since 1972.

He's also got a list of credentials and references which is nine pages long.

He lists instructional experience going back for over 30 years, at 19 different schools. That's places he's taught, not just places he's taken classes from.

He's the National Chairman of the committee on police firearms training for ASLET (American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers), which means he's one of the head folks in charge of training the guys who train all the other law enforcement professionals.

His personal training list looks like he got bored before he finished writing down all the courses he's taken and the places he's gone and the people he's trained with.

He's only a part-time cop because he does a lot of other stuff. He trains somewhere between 800 to 1200 people a year, while appearing as an expert witness in various court cases, while writing more magazine articles, books, and other publications than most people have on their bookshelves.

He's got 17 lawyers in 12 states ready to swear that he's an expert in his field and knows what he's talking about, and probably a lot more who would put in a good word for him if you asked them.

Seems to me that saying he's only a part-time cop on the mean streets of a tiny burg doesn't begin to cover what he does or how qualified he is to do it.

pax

Personalize your sympathies; depersonalize your antipathies. -- W. R. Inge

 

[TimboKhan]

I voted negative on Mas Ayoob, because it was the closest to fitting what I actually think of him. I think he is an ok writer, with a few valid points, but I think he is way too over-dramatic at times, and I don't think he is particularly original in his tactical advice. Neither make him a bad guy, but if i was going to take a class like those he offers, I think I would go to Gunsite or Thunder Ranch, but thats just me.

 

[homeka45]

Enjoyed "The Ayoob Files" and many of his articles. Will take his class if he ever comes back to Hawaii. He definately knows more than I do.

 

[GunGoBoom]

where's the "who cares" button?

 

[geekWithA.45]

Based on having read a fair amount of his work, I'm mostly positive, with a few negative "dings" on stuff I disagree with.

 

[Albert Shear]

This entire thread still goes against everything I believe in. I have no right to sit and judge anyone, whether I like them or not. But to judge someone you have never met galls me to no end. I know Mas, you won't find a finer friend to have. It is beyond belief that on a firearm forum you denigrate perhaps one of the most outspoken proponents of civilian carry rights for 30 years. He started training civilians before it was popular. Do you know he could pass the bar in most of the states if he wanted to? He has that sharp of a legal mind. Like PAX said, look at his resume, I would love to have half of it.
How about letting this go away. Demeaning a man who has done so much for all of us is hardly the reward he deserves.

 

[FPrice]

Albert...

I believe that I explained this once before but I have no problem going over it again.

Personally I have never met Mas Ayoob but from what I have seen and heard I do think that he is one of the best in his field. However there are many (one in particular who shall go nameless) who do denigrate Ayoob every chance they get. Well, fine. If you disagree with Ayoob that is your right and priviledge but I have asked these people on many occassions to state why they do not seem to like him or his teachings and put forth their beliefs on the subject. Along with their expertise.

If you will carefully re-read the questions I posed you should see what I hoped to accomplish. I was trying to determine what sort of exposure to Ayoob and his teachings people had and how that affected how they feel about him. Maybe not the most scientific approach but one which might demonstrate something about how people form their opinions.

For the most part this thread seems to have been a model of decorum. Most people seem to have been content with explaining why they like or do not like Ayoob without being insulting.

I do appreciate your input but so far it seems that Ayoob is winning.

 

[buzz_knox]

Neither make him a bad guy, but if i was going to take a class like those he offers, I think I would go to Gunsite or Thunder Ranch, but thats just me.

Just thought it was worth mentioning that neither Gunsite nor Thunder Ranch teach exactly what Ayoob does. They are shooting schools, with some excellent instruction by all accounts on conflict avoidance/detection and what happens immediately after. Ayoob specializes in what goes into making you a target, the decision to avoid being a target or not be a victim, what happens (or should happen) immediately before, during, and after a fight, and the overall aftermath. Shooting is actually a small part of it. Surviving and coming out on top is what it is all about (including the weapons retention and disarm techniques).

If you want premier shooting training, there are better instructors. If you want the legal side of it, those instructors say to go to Ayoob.

 

[HankB]

This entire thread still goes against everything I believe in . . . to judge someone you have never met galls me to no end.

So unless you've met them, would it be right to conclude you've formed no opinion on Bill Clinton, Theodore Roosevelt, Hillary Clinton, Mother Teresa, Adolf Hitler, Chuck Schumer, Pope John Paul II, Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, and Rosie O'Donnell?

There's a wealth of Ayoob's writings for one to evaluate, and I believe it's fair to form an opinion based on a survey of the volume of his work . . . there's a LOT of it out there.

My own opinion of Ayoob is very slightly positive . . . his book In The Gravest Extreme ought to be required reading for anyone who contemplates defensive gun use, particularly holders of concealed handgun licenses. And he deserves kudos for his "expert witness" gigs which have helped quite a few good people at risk of a miscarriage of justice due to politics or malicious prosecution.

On the other hand, the objectivity of his ammo recommendations is questionable, particularly since he has (or had at one time) a financial interest in at least one of the boutique ammo manufacturers he was recommending . . . a fact which, when revealed, drew a rather snide response. And I've personally found (to my sorrow) that his recommendations on good gunsmiths are not to be trusted.

 

[FireBreather01]

I've had LFI-I, Advanced StressFire, and will be attending LFI-II this Fall. Great classes, learned a lot and want more! He's personable, largely self-deprecating, and is eager to sit and listen after classes are over.

Big ego? Maybe - but probably deserved and I haven't noticed it getting in the way of learning from him or enjoying his company. He's a pioneer in the gun rights movement and that alone accords him a certain measure of respect - from me, at least.

I've enjoyed his writing and yes, all gun writers lean toward the gun of the moment, but I take that into account with all of them. All-in-all, his writings, especially the accounts of shootings, are instructive and interesting.

His LEO experience? Does one have to be a cop from a top 20 city to be legitimate? I don't think so! From what I've seen and heard from him he doesn't put on any airs of being RamboCop from East LA. He is who he is and acknowledges his base of experience.

He's a pioneer with strong opinions in a controversial field filled with know-it-alls and second-guessers. Anyone like that is bound to be at least somewhat controversial himself but at the end of the day he's a lot more knowledgable and experienced than 99.99% of the rest of us in the shooting world.

I like him!

 

[Albert Shear]

HankB,
Lets not be rediculous please. I was refering to judging Mas, not historical figures.
I said in my post I would not judge anyone. I do form opinions. They are wholely different. This thread in and of itself is a judgement of another human being, alive today whom I consider a friend. He is a citizen who has devoted his life to the advancement of law enforcement training nd citizen gun rights. This is my opinion. I think its wrong. The original post did not ask which school was better or who thought which trainer was better. An indictment of Mas Ayoob specifically was asked for by way of an opinion poll.
Don't bother expressing your opinion of me, I will not venture here again.

 

[HankB]

HankB, Lets not be rediculous please. I was refering to judging Mas, not historical figures.

Albert, perhaps you ought to re-read my post. Most of the people I mentioned - like Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Chuck Schumer, Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, and Rosie O'Donnel - are all alive and active today - they're no more "historical figures" than Ayoob is.

An indictment of Mas Ayoob specifically was asked for by way of an opinion poll.

Opinion polls are taken on public figures all the time. Sometimes the wording of the questions could be better. Often the results are less than flattering to the subject. Deal with it.

I would not judge anyone. I do form opinions. They are wholely different.

Vastly different indeed - thank you for clearing that up.

I haven't judged Ayoob - I've just formed an opinion of him and expressed it. As have the other people who've responded. (Note that the majority of opinions expressed have been positive. Even my own - though not by much.)

 

[oct_97]

He has been at a number of IDPA matches at the club I shoot at. Always conducts himself in a professional manner, quiet and polite. I have a Positive feeling about the man.

 

[Sean85746]

I have taken LFI 1&2, I really enjoyed both, and feel I learned a lot.

On the other hand...I live in Mesa, AZ, and therefore close to Gunsite, so I did a 5-day course there.

Coming away from it...the range instruction was, I feel, better at Gunsite (I was in a group of LEO's at both).

We were lucky enough to have Col. Cooper give us 2 lectures, one on mindset, and one on the conditions of awareness.

Where Ayoob truly shines is in his shooting aftermath, and legal lectures.