Origin of "Navy Caliber" and "Army Caliber?"
- Thread starter John C
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Skinny 1950
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The Civil war was the difference between a civilian small calibre arm and a " man stopper" firearm.
25cschaefer
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So, the army has man stoppers and the navy has boat stoppers?
I think it has more to do with the Navy department deciding 36cal was okay for poking holes and the Army thought 44 was okay. That is the calibers they chose as their contract guns so people just associated those calibers with them. 45-70 was the 45 Government for years.
I think it has more to do with the Navy department deciding 36cal was okay for poking holes and the Army thought 44 was okay. That is the calibers they chose as their contract guns so people just associated those calibers with them. 45-70 was the 45 Government for years.
Colt began by selling Paterson handguns and long guns to the Army during the Second Seminole War but his first real advance came when the Republic of Texas bought them in a moderate quantity. The Paterson revolver was used by the Texas navy when it defeated the Mexicans at the battle of Campeche. This inspired colt to put a naval scene on the cylinder of the 51 Navy when it finally came out and is the usual explanation for the 51s designation " Colt Revolving Belt Pistol of Naval Caliber" -even though most military orders for the .36s came from the army. Colts actual name for the "Dragoon" Was "Old Model Holster Pistol" according to R.L.Wilson's, Colt, An American Legend.
The .44 1860 Army was first referenced in Colt Factory notes as "Holster Pistol, Enlarged Caliber" and Army model may or may not have been an official name. Popular names are quite tricky and seem to have come from 20th century collectors. Wilson puts the actual development of the 1849 Pocket revolver and the "51 Navy" at 1850. Shumaker, Variations On The Old Model Pocket Pistol 1849-1872, dismisses the leverless "Well-Fargo" as another convenience name for the Pocket Model and adds that Wells-Fargo records show no indication that the concern ever bought a .31 caliber revolver. For a long time, the 36 caliber pocket revolver was callled the "Pocket Model of 1853 by collectors" though the current belief, due to the rebated frame and stepped cylinder, is that it came out along with the police model in the early 1860s.
The .44 1860 Army was first referenced in Colt Factory notes as "Holster Pistol, Enlarged Caliber" and Army model may or may not have been an official name. Popular names are quite tricky and seem to have come from 20th century collectors. Wilson puts the actual development of the 1849 Pocket revolver and the "51 Navy" at 1850. Shumaker, Variations On The Old Model Pocket Pistol 1849-1872, dismisses the leverless "Well-Fargo" as another convenience name for the Pocket Model and adds that Wells-Fargo records show no indication that the concern ever bought a .31 caliber revolver. For a long time, the 36 caliber pocket revolver was callled the "Pocket Model of 1853 by collectors" though the current belief, due to the rebated frame and stepped cylinder, is that it came out along with the police model in the early 1860s.
Panzerschwein
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.44s will stop horses dead in there tracks, especially from a Walker or Dragoon.
.36? Not so much!
.36? Not so much!
J-Bar
Member
There is also the anecdote (sorry, I will have to search for the source) about one of the western expeditions encountering a grizzly bear. The .36 Navies would not penetrate deeply enough to kill the bear and it was finally dispatched with a few shots from a Colt 1860 Army .44.
Now I have my quest for the day. I will post a reference if I can find it.
Patocazador
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Lewis & Clark's party had trouble stopping grizzlies with rifles. I'd hate to have to depend on a dragoon to do it. 
That story has been reported several time.s RL Wilson has it in his book. In the early 60s, I saw it in a gun magazine. The bear was a black bear and the guns were a a 9 mm and .45 acp in that version.
The very first colt revolvers ranged in caliber from 28 to 40 and the Texas Paterson was a 36. It made its bones in a naval Engagement inspiring the naval battle scene on the later "Navy" .36 revolver and its association with the Navy.
http://www.amazon.com/Colt-American-Legend-R-L-Wilson/dp/0896600114
The very first colt revolvers ranged in caliber from 28 to 40 and the Texas Paterson was a 36. It made its bones in a naval Engagement inspiring the naval battle scene on the later "Navy" .36 revolver and its association with the Navy.
http://www.amazon.com/Colt-American-Legend-R-L-Wilson/dp/0896600114
Willie Sutton
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Much of it has to do with Sam Colt's hucksterism, bearing in mind that he was a showman first (having hit the road giving magical nitrous oxide medicine show demonstrations before making his millions selling revolvers) and a manufacturer second. You can trust one thing about his advertisements and claims: They were whatever would sell more product.
"Navy" was leveraged from the modest sale of the .36 Paterson to the Texans and it's use in one famous naval battle. Colt used that advantage in advertising.
"Army" was leveraged from the horse-pistols, those suitable for pommel carry by mounted troops. Starting with the Rangers and their (few) Walkers and into the various Dragoons.
Neither "Navy" nor "Army" calibers were ordered as preference by either the Navy or Army. More or less they are just artifacts of old Sam's advertising campaigns. As the terms came into common use (among many with absolutely zero math literacy), other makers used the same description. The numerals "36" and "45" have nothing to say to a man who can't add 2+2 to get 4. "Navy" and "Army" were easy to understand for these folks. They are just names.
Don't think for one moment that the cylinder scenes weren't designed to show "in pictures" what a revolver model was to the illiterate either. These things need to be taken in the context of the times. Just odd to me that the Navy Battle scene is on a "Revolver in the Army Caliber", but... well.... Colt was Colt.
Willie
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"Navy" was leveraged from the modest sale of the .36 Paterson to the Texans and it's use in one famous naval battle. Colt used that advantage in advertising.
"Army" was leveraged from the horse-pistols, those suitable for pommel carry by mounted troops. Starting with the Rangers and their (few) Walkers and into the various Dragoons.
Neither "Navy" nor "Army" calibers were ordered as preference by either the Navy or Army. More or less they are just artifacts of old Sam's advertising campaigns. As the terms came into common use (among many with absolutely zero math literacy), other makers used the same description. The numerals "36" and "45" have nothing to say to a man who can't add 2+2 to get 4. "Navy" and "Army" were easy to understand for these folks. They are just names.
Don't think for one moment that the cylinder scenes weren't designed to show "in pictures" what a revolver model was to the illiterate either. These things need to be taken in the context of the times. Just odd to me that the Navy Battle scene is on a "Revolver in the Army Caliber", but... well.... Colt was Colt.
Willie
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DD4lifeusmc
Member
navy, army, air rifle
Don't forget the Lewis and Clark expedition also carried an air rifle.
.31 caliber.
Although it might not kill you, it is still going to hurt!
Don't forget the Lewis and Clark expedition also carried an air rifle.
.31 caliber.
Although it might not kill you, it is still going to hurt!
J-Bar
Member
End of the Quest!
I found the anecdote referred to in my post #7. My memory was off, it was not an 1860 Army but a .44 Dragoon:
"With the Colt preeminent as a military handgun, the question arose as to which model - .36 or .44 - was better adapted to frontier service. Undoubtedly a popular topic for barracks discussion, the question drew this well-reasoned comment from Captain Randolph B. Marcy:
'Notwithstanding Colt's army and navy sized revolvers have been in use for a long time in our army, officers are by no means of one mind as to their relative merits for frontier service. The navy pistol, being more light and portable, is more convenient for the belt, but it is very questionable in my mind whether these qualities counterbalance the advantages derived from the greater weight of powder and lead that can be fired from the larger pistol, and the consequent increased projectile force.'
To illustrate his point Marcy cited an incident which occurred in 1858. Missing his shot at a grizzly, he attempted to drive the animal toward his companions in the advance guard. Soon several troopers armed with .36 caliber revolvers joined him, firing perhaps a dozen shots at close range which had no apparent effect. Then a horseman with a .44 caliber Dragoon galloped up and with two quick shots put the unfortunate bear out of its misery. When the skinner finished removing the pelt, the soldiers found that none of the .36 caliber balls had penetrated deeply enough to be fatal. Only the .44 bullets had done the job. 'This test,' Marcy concluded, 'was to my mind a decisive one as to the relative efficiency of the two arms for frontier service, and I resolved thenceforth to carry the larger size.' "
This is quoted from page 204, Firearms of the American West 1803 -1865, by Louis A. Garavaglia and Charles G. Worman; University of New Mexico Press, 1984. The footnote for the original quotation from Captain Marcy is Capt. Randolph B. Marcy, The Prairie Traveller (New York, 1859), pp. 165-66.
It might have been a small grizzly...
More on Captain Marcy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randolph_B._Marcy
I found the anecdote referred to in my post #7. My memory was off, it was not an 1860 Army but a .44 Dragoon:
"With the Colt preeminent as a military handgun, the question arose as to which model - .36 or .44 - was better adapted to frontier service. Undoubtedly a popular topic for barracks discussion, the question drew this well-reasoned comment from Captain Randolph B. Marcy:
'Notwithstanding Colt's army and navy sized revolvers have been in use for a long time in our army, officers are by no means of one mind as to their relative merits for frontier service. The navy pistol, being more light and portable, is more convenient for the belt, but it is very questionable in my mind whether these qualities counterbalance the advantages derived from the greater weight of powder and lead that can be fired from the larger pistol, and the consequent increased projectile force.'
To illustrate his point Marcy cited an incident which occurred in 1858. Missing his shot at a grizzly, he attempted to drive the animal toward his companions in the advance guard. Soon several troopers armed with .36 caliber revolvers joined him, firing perhaps a dozen shots at close range which had no apparent effect. Then a horseman with a .44 caliber Dragoon galloped up and with two quick shots put the unfortunate bear out of its misery. When the skinner finished removing the pelt, the soldiers found that none of the .36 caliber balls had penetrated deeply enough to be fatal. Only the .44 bullets had done the job. 'This test,' Marcy concluded, 'was to my mind a decisive one as to the relative efficiency of the two arms for frontier service, and I resolved thenceforth to carry the larger size.' "
This is quoted from page 204, Firearms of the American West 1803 -1865, by Louis A. Garavaglia and Charles G. Worman; University of New Mexico Press, 1984. The footnote for the original quotation from Captain Marcy is Capt. Randolph B. Marcy, The Prairie Traveller (New York, 1859), pp. 165-66.
It might have been a small grizzly...
More on Captain Marcy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randolph_B._Marcy
Willie Sutton
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'Notwithstanding Colt's army and navy sized revolvers have been in use for a long time in our army, officers are by no means of one mind as to their relative merits for frontier service. The navy pistol, being more light and portable, is more convenient for the belt, but it is very questionable in my mind whether these qualities counterbalance the advantages derived from the greater weight of powder and lead that can be fired from the larger pistol, and the consequent increased projectile force.'
Note the mention of "The larger pistol", not "The larger caliber". That's telling.
"Soon several troopers armed with .36 caliber revolvers joined him, firing perhaps a dozen shots at close range which had no apparent effect. Then a horseman with a .44 caliber Dragoon"
Bear in mind that the comparison noted here was likely between the 1851 "Belt Model in Navy Caliber", and a "Dragoon of the x model in the Army Caliber". The frame sizes of the two different revolvers (at that time) was very substantial. Think Third Model Dragoon "Horse Pistol" versus the lithe and sleek little 1851.
Once belt pistols in .44 came out, the Frontier was a 44 caliber place, methinks.
Willie
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Note the mention of "The larger pistol", not "The larger caliber". That's telling.
"Soon several troopers armed with .36 caliber revolvers joined him, firing perhaps a dozen shots at close range which had no apparent effect. Then a horseman with a .44 caliber Dragoon"
Bear in mind that the comparison noted here was likely between the 1851 "Belt Model in Navy Caliber", and a "Dragoon of the x model in the Army Caliber". The frame sizes of the two different revolvers (at that time) was very substantial. Think Third Model Dragoon "Horse Pistol" versus the lithe and sleek little 1851.
Once belt pistols in .44 came out, the Frontier was a 44 caliber place, methinks.
Willie
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cool information in any case.
The fully provenanced story about the bear has the ring of truth about it.
Elmer Keith said that his old frontier -days story tellers said that the .36 ball loads had knockdown effect all of of proportion to their ballistics but added they they preferred the conical bullets for penetration finding that they were more effective at going through a wild cow's skull.
Panzerschwein
member
The Girandoni air rifle carried by Lewis & Clark was in .46 caliber, NOT .31, and with a full tank it could easily shoot through an adult human being.
It would more than just hurt, it would flat out kill you. Multiple times. The Austrian army used this gun for about 20 years, and for it's day it's firepower was unheard of, and was plenty lethal out to 200 yards or more.
Conan Doyle used one in the Adventure of the Empty House in 1894. No mention of its repeat capability though one of the pro gun authors is using the Lewis and Clark air rifle to refute the claims of the Sissies who say that the Second Amendment was written when there was nothing but single shot firelocks.
rcflint
Member
Unlike today's weapons requirements for government purchase, where all manufacturers produce interchangable parts, the Civil War era purchasing only proscribed the caliber and barrel length. So a Remington Navy, a Starr, a Colt, Whitney, etc were of 36 caliber and a 7-1/2 inch barrel, without any other parts or features in common.
An "Army" was to be in 44 caliber with an 8 inch barrel, regardless of the maker or gun design. Western travelers liked Navies because they were lighter (certainly compared to a Dragoon) and there were more 80 gr balls to a pound. (almost 90 per pound) The 36 Navy conical bullet (140 gr) weighed the same as a 44 caliber round ball. There were 50 round 44 balls per pound (making it 50 gage)
For purchasing purposes, the 36 Navy and 44 Army were specified by caliber and barrel length, but not by service. Both the Army and the Navy issued revolvers of both calibers.
It might be considered that 50 per pound was the origin of the 44 caliber.
As for actual diameter, the percussion era caliber was identified by the bore diameter before rifling, so it is the land diameter. A 44 caliber groove is 45 caliber, a 36 barrel groove is .38 diameter. In the cartridge era, the bore was switched to the groove dimension calling the caliber, so a modern 44 is closer to 44 (.43) a caliber only used in the metric countries (11mm).. The 45 Colt bullet is the diameter of the 44 roundball.
The 38 revolver is really a .36 because the originals were heel type bullets used in a percussion dimensioned bore, but when the later bullets were sized down to go inside the case, the designation didn't get revised, except as used for the .357 M..
An "Army" was to be in 44 caliber with an 8 inch barrel, regardless of the maker or gun design. Western travelers liked Navies because they were lighter (certainly compared to a Dragoon) and there were more 80 gr balls to a pound. (almost 90 per pound) The 36 Navy conical bullet (140 gr) weighed the same as a 44 caliber round ball. There were 50 round 44 balls per pound (making it 50 gage)
For purchasing purposes, the 36 Navy and 44 Army were specified by caliber and barrel length, but not by service. Both the Army and the Navy issued revolvers of both calibers.
It might be considered that 50 per pound was the origin of the 44 caliber.
As for actual diameter, the percussion era caliber was identified by the bore diameter before rifling, so it is the land diameter. A 44 caliber groove is 45 caliber, a 36 barrel groove is .38 diameter. In the cartridge era, the bore was switched to the groove dimension calling the caliber, so a modern 44 is closer to 44 (.43) a caliber only used in the metric countries (11mm).. The 45 Colt bullet is the diameter of the 44 roundball.
The 38 revolver is really a .36 because the originals were heel type bullets used in a percussion dimensioned bore, but when the later bullets were sized down to go inside the case, the designation didn't get revised, except as used for the .357 M..
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Curator
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The US Army chose the .44 caliber revolver because the heavier bullet would be more effective on horses. The concept of "Dragoons" (mounted infantry) using revolvers in place of rifles or musketoons was very limited and short lived. Most revolver use was by the cavalry. Un-horsing your opponent pretty much took them out of the fight. Even then the revolver was a secondary weapon with the saber being the principal one.(which is why a revolver was carried butt forward on the weak side) Naval revolvers were only required to shoot human targets at close range so the .36 was adequate.
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