Original .38/40 Black Powder Ballistics

[.455_Hunter]

Greetings!

It is fairly well documented that full charge BP (3F?) load (35-40 gr) in .45 Colt will launch a 250/255 gr lead bullet at 900-1000 fps put of a 7.5" revolver. Since the .38/40 uses the same charge with a 180 gr bullet, it seems like it should be real screamer- perhaps nearing 1200 fps based on similar energies out of the same length barrel.

Does anybody have actual velocities on full-charge .38/40 loads?

Thanks!

Hunter

 

[rcmodel]

You'd think, but it doesn't.

The 40 grain charge pushed a 180 grain bullet out of a rifle around 1,160 fps.

From a handgun?
Perhaps 900+ FPS on a real good day.

The thing is, the .45 Colt bullet is bigger around, so the same powder charge has more surface area to push on.

Like boring out a hot rod car engine to get bigger pistons.

rc

 

[CraigC]

Things get very interesting with even faster smokeless powders like Unique. From a 24" rifle, I get 1550fps with 180gr RNFP's at standard pressures. Or 1200fps from a revolver.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Good to know!

When did the ammo companies start loading the .38/40 with smokeless?

My 1908 New Service has the "fouling cup" in the top strap, something that my M1917 .45 does not.

Has anybody tried the GOEX or Buffalo Arms BP .34/40 loads?

 

[CraigC]

I got some Black Dawge blackpowder bullets for it but never got around to trying them. Maybe this fall between hunts.

 

[Busyhands94]

Very interesting, I would think that the bullets would be traveling faster than that. So from a handgun it's kinda like a .38 Special? What is the typical bullet weight in most .38-40 cartridges of the time period?

 

[rcmodel]

So from a handgun it's kinda like a .38 Special?

From a handgun, it's much more like an exact copy of the .40 S&W.

Right down to the 180 grain bullet weight, .400" caliber, and 900 FPS velocity.

See, the 38-40 WCF really isn't a .38.
It's a .40.

There is even some speculation that the 38-40 WCF name didn't follow conventions of the time.

The factory powder charge was 38 grains, and the caliber was .40.
So who knows?

rc

 

[.455_Hunter]

Right down to the 180 grain bullet weight, .400" caliber, and 900 FPS velocity.

I have heard that Winchester used factory .400" 180 gr JSPs intended for the .38/40 in the initial load development for the .40 S&W. Makes sense, especially since the "in-house" 180 gr JHP design was probably being developed at the same time.

I called Buffalo Arms. Their .38/40 load uses at 175 gr LFP with 32 to 33 gr of lightly compressed 3F BP.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

As noted above, the 38-40 was actually a 40 caliber bullet. According to Barnes' Cartridges of the World, factory loads from a rifle reached 1330 MV.

But he doesn't say what powder was in that. He adds that the cartridge was probably a better revolver cartridge. But notes factory loads to only reach 1160 MV with a revolver. Says it is inadequate for deer. BUT then he turns around and says with handloads the 44-40 could be a better deer cartridge than the 30-30.

 

[StrawHat]

With muzzle loaders, a given charge of powder gives a predictable velocity. In order to increase the "power"of a rifle, traditionally you moved up to a larger caliber. The speed of the round ball was the same but the weight was more so they hit "harder".

 

[Busyhands94]

Very interesting, I didn't know that about the 38-40's. I just figured it was a little bigger than a .38 Special (which is .35 caliber, not .38 caliber) so it would be around .380 ish in size.

Then again I used to think that the .38 Special was actually .38 caliber and the name would be accurate, where do they get this cr@p?

Same with the .380 ACP. That's a .35 caliber bullet. And the 9mm, the .38 Auto, the .38 S&W, the .357 Magnum, .357 Sig and a ton of other cartridges.

Calibers can be confusing when they name something but it's entirely different than the name suggests.

 

[CraigC]

Calibers can be confusing when they name something but it's entirely different than the name suggests.

That's what makes it interesting!

 

[mykeal]

Caliber refers to the chamber, not the projectile.

 

[StrawHat]

I thought caliber refered to the bore diameter and cartridge referred to the chamber. As in a 45 caliber rifled chambered for the 45-70 cartridge.

 

[mykeal]

It used to. Not any more.

 

[CraigC]

I thought caliber refered to the bore diameter and cartridge referred to the chamber. As in a 45 caliber rifled chambered for the 45-70 cartridge.

That's what it's supposed to mean but it's been misused for so long, nobody knows anymore.

 

[CraigC]

double post

 

[Malamute]

Caliber refers to the chamber, not the projectile.

That's the first time I've ever heard that.

 

[StrawHat]

double post

 

[StrawHat]

It used to. Not any more.

This is a good example of the "dumbing down" process.

 

[LightningMan]

The info I get out of Mike Venturino's book called; "Shooting Colt Single Actions" ( .45 Colt w/7.5in barrel 35 gr. Goex FFFg= 973 fps average.)
( .38-40 Colt w/4.75 in barrel 33 gr. Goex FFFg= 945 fps average )