Oswald and the Carcano rifle

[DonnyBrook13]

The 10-yr.old zombie thread about Oswald and the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle somehow got resurrected to center stage (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=37915) I read the whole thread -- a lot of speculation with little of the known facts of the case presented. As we are approaching the 50th anniversary of the assassination, here's a redux, examining only the rifle, ballistics and shooter/bullet evidence, not the whole conspiracy minefield:

1. Oswald as "sharpshooter" in the Marines. There are 3 grades in descending order: Expert, Sharpshooter, Marksman. In 1956, Oswald scored 212, barely qualifying for Sharpshooter. In 1959, he scored 191, reducing his rating to Marksman.

2. The 6.5mm round fired from the Mannlicher-Carcano was a copper-jacketed round nose bullet, with an exposed base, weighing 161 grains on average. Fired from the Mannlicher-Carcano, it attains an average muzzle velocity of 2,195 fps.

3. The Mannlicher-Carcano was notorious for having a sticky, difficult bolt and a stagey trigger, not conducive to rapid firing with any degree of accuracy. Ronald Simmons, of the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch of the Army’s Ballistics Research Laboratory, supervised a series of tests by NRA Masters-rated rifleman with Oswald's Carcano. They all commented about "the amount of effort required to open the bolt." Simmons stated: "In our experiments, the pressure to open the bolt was so great that we tended to move the rifle off the target..."

4. Several tests have been conducted over the years by other expert rifleman (including Simmon's team) attempting to duplicate Oswald's alleged feat. Many have been able to get off 3 rounds in 6 seconds with the Carcano, but most of these tests were at still targets. Few, if any, have been able to hit with any accuracy a moving target at the specified distances in the time required.

5. The cheap Japanese scope on the Carcano was misaligned. It actually required a shim that was not installed. FBI firearms expert Robert Frazier testified to the WC about the results of tests with Oswald's Carcano:

At 15 yards:
2.5 to 4 inches too high;
1 inch too far to the right

At 25 yards:
4 to 5 inches too high;
1 to 2 inches too far to the right

At 100 yards:
2.5 to 5 inches too high;
2 to 5 inches too far to the right

It was not explained how the deviation at 100 yards was only marginally greater than the deviation at 25 yards. According to one ballistics calculator, if it was off 4" high at 25 yards, it would have been off 18" high at 100 yards. It's been assumed that Frazier's team began compensating for the scope misalignment at the longer range.

6. The 3 shots that Oswald was alleged to have fired by the Warren Commission, deduced from the Zapruder film, were from distances estimated at 58, 80 and 88 yards.

Photos and examination of the bullet and bullet fragments recovered to come...

 

[Clark]

Bojangles posted on 10-3-2008 on the Canadian gun nuts forum:

JFK Carcano ........ 1938 Terni
You mean like this one..............

It took me twenty five years to find the correct scope........

Cheers

 

[herrwalther]

1. Oswald's "sharpshooter" status is a media misnomer. It sounds better than "he was sharpshooter then marksman" when selling, at the time, newspapers. If I were in a similar situation for some reason I would be called a "sharpshooter" merely because that is a common name for someone who knows how to shoot well and being military trained. It would be slightly insulting to me however, as I have never scored below expert when using a properly sighted weapon.

3. Nope and nope. I was able to fondle several Carcano rifles at a gun show just about a year ago, about 9 in all. The actions on all of them were smooth as a milsurp bolt action should be. Now that is not indicative of all Carcano rifles, not by a long shot. But any halfway decent military "sharpshooter" can smooth out a bolt and trigger with a good cleaning and lubrication. It is far more likely that the rifle was improperly stored during the course of the investigation causing the weapon to degrade mechanically.

4. Penn and Teller on episode of their show "Bull****" were able to dry fire a Carcano 3 times in half as much time as it took Oswald to make the shot. Now if you were to factor in that neither of them have any firearms training, dry firing was a simple task for them. Marines shoot out to 500 yards with the current M16 and much farther when using the M1 and M14s of yesteryear. A Marine (or anyone in combat arms military) shooting at a moving target less than 100 yards away is rather easy.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

I have studied this case for most of my adult life starting by reading the Warren Commission Report one summer in college. My ROTC instructor and Rifle Coach said the Marines and Army Snipers agreed he made the shoot. I have no doubt Oswall was the killer.

 

[DonnyBrook13]

Every other Carcano in the world may be smooth as a greased lightning, but the one in question was definitely not -- every member of Simmon's team cited the same difficulty with the bolt on this particular firearm, and those tests were conducted before the WC convened in 1964. Doubtful that a few months in storage would caused that persistent problem.

Penn and Teller dry firing a Carcano in their office, or on stage or wherever is hardly a valid comparison to firing live rounds at a moving target with a misaligned scope from several stories up.

 

[DonnyBrook13]

I have studied this case for most of my adult life starting by reading the Warren Commission Report one summer in college. My ROTC instructor and Rifle Coach said the Marines and Army Snipers agreed he made the shoot. I have no doubt Oswall was the killer.

Maybe your instructors were unfamiliar with the specific condition of this rifle, and the paraffin tests conducted on Oswald a few hours after the assassination. Barium and antimony, found in gunpowder residue, are also found in printing ink, which Oswald handled that day. Paraffin tests can extract these residues deep from the pores, even if the subject has washed up thoroughly after firing a gun.

The tests on Oswald detected residue consistent with gunpowder (or printing ink) on his hands, but none on his cheeks. They were subjected to both spectrographic analysis and neutron activation analysis.

As a control to check the validity of the tests, seven marksmen fired a similar Carcano, and then were given paraffin tests with neutron activation analysis. All 7 exhibited barium and antimony on both their hands and cheeks.

In any other criminal case, this evidence would be probative that the subject may have fired a handgun, but not a rifle. Which appears to be the case with Oswald (he may have shot Officer Tippet with a .38 revolver). But then this no ordinary case -- mythology rules for many.

 

[dbmjr1]

I have no experience with Carcano rifles.

With my Mosin Nagant, if I shoot any ammo other than the good Russian Surplus, the bolt will require opening with a 2x4. With the good Russian Surplus it's smooth as silk.

I offer this tidbit, wondering if the evaluators used the exact same ammo as Oswald. I could imagine that even a difference in lot # could make a difference.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

3. The Mannlicher-Carcano was notorious for having a sticky, difficult bolt and a stagey trigger, not conducive to rapid firing with any degree of accuracy. Ronald Simmons, of the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch of the Army’s Ballistics Research Laboratory, supervised a series of tests by NRA Masters-rated rifleman with Oswald's Carcano. They all commented about "the amount of effort required to open the bolt." Simmons stated: "In our experiments, the pressure to open the bolt was so great that we tended to move the rifle off the target..."

LOL, ours was smooth enough. Moved off target? So what? The target was moving? If the gun didn't move, it would still be off target.

4. Several tests have been conducted over the years by other expert rifleman (including Simmon's team) attempting to duplicate Oswald's alleged feat. Many have been able to get off 3 rounds in 6 seconds with the Carcano, but most of these tests were at still targets. Few, if any, have been able to hit with any accuracy a moving target at the specified distances in the time required.

Oswald had issues as well, but he made short range hits. It can and has been replicated.

5. The cheap Japanese scope on the Carcano was misaligned. It actually required a shim that was not installed. FBI firearms expert Robert Frazier testified to the WC about the results of tests with Oswald's Carcano:

Don't really know where Oswald was aiming, do we? LOL. I got a buddy with a long range hunting rifle that is 4" high at 100 yards. He can hit pigs with it at 50. It isn't a big deal if the crosshairs were not where the testers thought they should be so long as Oswald knew the POI relative to the POA.

To quote a notable TV western character...

Windage and elevation, Mrs. Langdon; windage and elevation

 

[amd6547]

I used to doubt that the carcano was capable of being the JFK weapon...until I owned one.
I found it to shoot very quickly indeed. The bolt was very slick and fast, while the clip system fed very smoothly.
In fact, I have owned and shot most of the major military bolt guns...the carcano was the quickest handling of them all...easier to manipulate than even the Enfield.
I still have my doubts about the Oswald story...but not about the Carcano.

 

[M1key]

An interesting read. Roberts had access to the actual evidence. His take is decidely differrent...

M

 

[jmr40]

Was just in Dallas a few weeks ago and toured the area of the shooting. I've never fired a Caracano rifle, never had any military training, but don't think the shots would have been impossible with any of my current rifles. From the edge of the building to the point where the first bullet hit Kennedy was around 60 yards, of course he was also 6 stories up. The 2nd shot was around 100 yards, maybe less. I've put 3 shots into about 3" in 4 seconds @ 50 yards with my model 70 308. 3 shots with the Caranaco in 6 seconds seems reasonable.

While it was a moving target, the angle was not very severe. The 2nd shot in particular was from almost directly behind. The 1st shot was at only a slight angle and the car was moving slowly at that point.

He missed with 1 of the 3 shots and no one knows where that bullet ended up. Most non-shooters even in the 1960's just have no idea of the abilities of a reasonably competent shooter and assume such a shot impossible. I believe there are a lot of experienced hunters who could have made that shot at least 50% of the time. Oswald was 2 out of 3 and a little luck may have been involved, but I have no doubts he was the lone gunman. I don't see any way another shooter could have possibly been undetected on the grassy knoll.

Was he supported and encouraged by others? That is another debate about which I've no idea.

 

[M1key]

Read the book. More than one shooter. In evidence, a spent .221 Fireball case left on the fence at the grassy knoll with teeth marks. A calling card of international hitman Carlos "the Jackal".

Way too many unanswered questions in the WC report. A whitewash, IMO.

M

 

[Slamfire]

Someone offered the theory that Oswald was left eye dominant. If he shot from the left shoulder he could well have rested the rifle with his right hand on the bolt. I have never tried this but it would sure cut down on the time required to cycle the rifle.

You can cycle a bolt action very quickly if you practice. I don’t have a Carcano but with other actions, from a sitting position, I have shot, reloaded, before the fired case hit the ground.

I have been to Dealey Plaza and the distances are not that taxing.

None of the alternate shooter’s theories have ever put anyone in jail and never will. Oswald killed Kennedy and Dallas Patrolman J. D. Tippit.

You know, for decades after Lincoln’s assassination similar conspiracy theories lasted, made money for the proponents and excited the masses. But in time, like what will happen to the Kennedy assassination, the generation for whom this was a defining moment will die, interest will wane, and succeeding generations will get on to other things.

 

[Float Pilot]

Much is always made of the scope on the actual rifle. BUT... at the short ranges of the 3 shots that were made, the iron sights would have been more than good enough. And that side scope mount allowed the use of the iron sights.

Various FBI shooters re-enacted those shots with a similar rifle with little difficulty.

You can't go by military rifleman scores. I usually shot expert with both M-14s and later M-16s. However there were a couple times my score was lower because I was busy doing push-ups for running my mouth during part of the shooting or because I had a malfunction, or the range targets were doing weird things...

Plus some shooters stink at range target work ,, but excel on moving target shooting...

 

[VA27]

3. To a person used to shooting the better bolt-actions of the era, sure. To a person used to shooting the Cacarno, not so much.

4. It's been duplicated enough over the years, including with moving targets, to place the accomplishment of this feat squarely in the realm of the possible.

5. Who knows if he used the scope? He was a southpaw by most accounts and that particular setup doesn't look lefty friendly. Maybe the first (and missing) shot was taken with the scope. Then most likely he used the iron sights, since that's what he was accustomed to.

1. & 6. As has already been noted, it was downhill with the target moving slowly downhill and almost straight away and slightly angling to the left. Not a particularly difficult shot even for a 'marksman' using iron sights.

The deed is possible and he was capable of doing it.

 

[Sam1911]

So we close one zombie thread just to resurrect it again here? Odd, must not have hit the brain I guess.

There's no point in this speculative rehashing of an old cold case that serves THR's mission in any way.