Dog Soldier
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Wally thanks for extending my post. You must have been around in those days. Those were the days when our rights were taken away. Little did we know it was the Eve of the Vietnam War as well? The 1960s were a dark decade.
Campfire chatting....Lee Harvey Oswald and the Carcano rifle...
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wally
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I was like 13 when it happened. Back then nobody locked their doors or took the keys out of their cars, if you left your car windows down neighbors would roll them up for you if it started to rain, or move your car if it blocked the snow plow. Everyone had a gun sitting in a closet or behind a door. By time I was 18 anything not nailed down quickly disappeared and handguns were effectively banned (lest you have political connections to get a permit.
Jackal
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I for one could never get my Carcano's to shoot straight. Maybe it was those awful triggers.
Dog Soldier
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The Carcano Milsurp rifles should have been in nice shape. The Italian Fascist Army only dropped their rifles once.
wally
Member
Or if it was scoped, some of those mounts and scopes used to keep the price down would hold back the accuracy of anything they were put on. This was back in the day where only people like NASA and GM had CNC tools.
One of the rumor/conspiracies I haven't seen mentioned yet, was supposedly when the rifle was recovered the zero was pretty far off, considering the quality of the scope mounts, its hard to make a big deal if it got knocked around while trying to "hide" it. But this was the basis for the idea that he was shooting at Jackie and hit JFK because the scope was off. I don't buy it, but it adds to the lore
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BSA1
member
I belong to an antique gun club. While the club’s main purpose is collecting and shooting black powder firearms interest has shifted over the years to early 20th century – WWII firearms. We do a lot of long range shooting with a wide variety of rifles and carbines. Anything less than 100 yards is considered short range and basically give me points. Competition is tight and groups have to be really small to win.
Personally I find using a scope at 100 yards or less to be a bigger handicap than using open iron sights. The field of view for a ¾” tube scope of the era would be narrow at less than 100 yards. Many Carcano’s I have seen are in good shooting condition and the actions work smoothly.
I think many folks equate the poor military leadership of Italian armed forces to meaning their firearms were equally as poor. Think of the old jokes about buying surplus French rifles. They are in great condition and have only been dropped once.
Oswald was charged with the murder of Officer Tippet. The revolver he used was a British W.W.II S&W Victory 38 S&W rechambered to 38 Special and the barrel cut down to 2”. What hasn’t the same doubt the Oswald used a worn W.W.II bring back with a oversize barrel bore and chambers to murder a police officer been raised?
My point is distance is relative to the type of firearm being used.
coloradokevin
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A number of people already beat me to the answer for the OP's question:
Crazy people do crazy things.
Crazy people do crazy things.
coloradokevin
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That's really not all that odd at all. I've investigated hundreds of shootings during my career, and bullets sometimes do unpredictable things. Just because a bullet is supposed to behave a certain way doesn't mean that it does. Oswald was a nut, and we could debate his choice of weapon until the end of time, but crazy people just do crazy things. I've watched prisoners in holding cells poop in their hands and then eat it... not the way a normal person would do it, but it worked for them, I suppose.
We like to think of presidential security as impenetrable these days, and it's certainly better than it ever has been, and better than the security for any other dignitary. But, in reality, presidential security is most effective at stopping nut jobs and whackadoodles, because those are the folks are typically the ones who would be misguided enough to decide to assassinate someone over a political difference (or because their dog was talking to them, or because of the voices in their head, or whatever). Oswald acted in a different day and age, and presidential security back then wasn't what it is today. Sure, he was a former Marine. But, he wasn't some Tier 1 professional... today's security would have stopped someone like Oswald, even if it still isn't (and never will be) impenetrable.
ThomasT
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No he wasn't. If you are basing this on the Oliver Stone movie you are on thin ice. The book the movie was based on was written by Jim Garrison a certified nut. But his book was the cheapest Oliver Stone could get the rights to.
LHO had been living in a rented house seperate from his wife who was living with Ruth Paine in another part of Dallas. Oswalds rifle was stored at Ruth Paines house. Oswald used to go the the levees in dallas to shoot his rifle. He for a time kept his rifle hidden there since that was an illegal spot to shoot. Remember he didn't drive. So getting to a range to shoot would have been a big problem. He didn't drive and took the bus to get around or he just walked. Plus he only had 4 rounds of ammunition left and no way to go buy more. And he was at work leading up to the shooting.
Oswald went to Ruth Paines house the night before the shooting to retrieve his rifle. He wrapped it in brown paper and told Buell Frazier when he picked him up the next morning to go to work that the package was curtain rods for his rent house. When Oswald left that morning he left Marina his ring and most of his cash. He knew what he planned to do and wasn't certain he would get away with it. The whole affair was based on a last minute plan because the Dallas paper had published the route Kennedy would take. After he shot JFK he took cab back to his boarding house to get his handgun.
I posted a link to a very good book on this in my first post. All of this information comes from that book. Of all the people discussed in the book Jack Ruby was the most interesting. He was an unbalanced person that no self respecting mob would have trusted with something like an assisination of a presidential killer. The day he shot Oswald he had his favorite dog with him because he went to wire money to one of his dancers in Ft Worth. It was a fluke that he walked over to the police station and had a chance to shoot Oswald. Get the book if you want to know more.
I read a book by a gun expert on the shooting. He duplicated three shots in about 7 seconds (with a Carcano) that were accurate and showed that the Carcano could have been the murder weapon.
The government was successful in removing the body before a proper legal autopsy could be performed and also destroyed any evidence in the limousine. There are links to the Mafia in so many places that the whole case stinks.
How can someone misplace the presidents brain?? They sure can't find it to see if there is evidence of a sintered/exploding bullet.
How can anyone believe the official story? Go figure!
The government was successful in removing the body before a proper legal autopsy could be performed and also destroyed any evidence in the limousine. There are links to the Mafia in so many places that the whole case stinks.
How can someone misplace the presidents brain?? They sure can't find it to see if there is evidence of a sintered/exploding bullet.
How can anyone believe the official story? Go figure!
zb338
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That whole deal was so screwed up that no one will know the real truth of what happened.
Zeke
Zeke
Dog Soldier
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No never read any of this in a book. I was in Graduate School at MIT. My memory is shaky but that was how the shooting was reported. In 1961.
BrocLuno
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Maybe it was the undersized bullets commonly used ...
ThomasT
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Then I suspect your memory may be at fault since this happened in 1963.
Dog Soldier
member
The Japanese Ariska/ Carcano was the best rifle Italy had.
http://candrsenal.com/rifle-carcano-type-i/
http://candrsenal.com/rifle-carcano-type-i/
Dog Soldier
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It was a typo. You may be breaking the forum rules.Then I suspect your memory may be at fault since this happened in 1963.
Relevant part starts @ 3:00.
JFK was sitting with his body facing straight ahead and Connely was facing to the right and he was also in a jump seat that was actually lower than the President and more in the middle of the car rather than on the left.
Nothing odd about it, trajectory is a straight shot when you position their bodies correctly.
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A Marine marksman is better than 99.9999% of the shooters in the general population. At that time Marines spent two weeks a year at the range and a Marine Expert was a pretty good shot. The poor marksmanship skills of the general population are a continual surprise. To shoot on the CMP Bullseye range, you have to qualify. This is because these electronic targets are $15,000 apiece and the CMP does not want the electronics shot to pieces. Qualification consists of placing ten shots on a standard Bullseye target, about two feet by two feet, at 25 yards (for 25 yard qualification) or at 50 yards (for 50 yard qualification). The day I qualified there was a huge pile of 380 auto cases around the qualification point and the range officer told me of a group of shooters who came up with their 380 Auto pistols and not one of them qualified at 25 yards. I am proud to say, I qualified at 50 yards with my 45.
Anyway, when the general population, who don't know what end the round come out, reads nonsense such as the link, they don't understand the skill levels it takes just to be a Marine Marksman or Sharpshooter.
Well since I'm a retired Marine I'm well aware of what it takes to qualify in the Marine Corps, my first time around was 1975, and I can tell you that it takes very little skill to obtain a Marksman's badge and that's what Oswald earned the last time he qualified. Sharpshooter is a little tougher but most people can do it and most often Marines do it with one day of live fire before they fire for qualification. Boot camp requires several weeks because the Marine Corps trains you in the basics of marksmanship. After boot camp most Marines only go through a few days of live fire training per year (except for infantry).
Deaf Smith
Member
At the ranges he shot, the Carcano was quite adequate. With correct bullet diameter (and the military was the correct .268 inch diameter.)
FMJ mach 2 or more is quite destructive. Plus the FMJ 160 gr military feeds very well in the Carcano.
The 6.5 Carcano with scope would do the job quite well.
The Carcano Milsurp rifles should have been in nice shape. The Italian Fascist Army only dropped their rifles once.
So true. I have a Beretta 1934 .380 stamped 1941. Circle and RA (Royal Army). Yes a WW2 service pistol. No import marks! Ok little gun but surely not a 1911 or even a Walther P-38. I have no doubt Oswald's rifle was in very good condition and could at 100 yards make 3 inch groups all day with military ammo.
Deaf
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What you're missing is context. LHO was not doing well financially. He was living in a boarding house and his wife was living at a friend's house and helping with housework/etc. He didn't have enough money to buy a car. He had trouble holding jobs. At the time of the assassination he was working for minimum wage.
He really shouldn't have been spending money on any guns, and he certainly didn't have money to go buy a nice hunting rifle, decent scope or hunting ammo.
True. Before the JFK shooting the rifle was used in a previous assassination attempt on Edwin Walker. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Walker
I live in the DFW area and have been to the depository museum and Dealey Plaza more than once. My impressions were identical to yours. It was not a hard shot. I'm more amazed that he missed one out of the three shots than that he hit the other two.
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Dog Soldier
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At 88.3333 yards it does not require a perfect rifle.
ThomasT
Member
Oswald did take a shot at Walker in April. He bought his rifle in March. I am not sure if anyone knows what his final intentions were for buying the rifle but Marina did state he spent a lot of time on the closed in porch at one of the houses they lived in cycling the bolt on the gun. She stated the rifle was "not a very good toy for Lee". He at one time decided he would Hijack a plane. He used to pretend he was jumping over seats in a plane by leaping over the furniture in his apartment. Marina thought he was "crazy". Maybe thats why he bought the handgun. Who knows?
Dog Soldier
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Those are really nice pistols.
Deaf Smith
Member
And the car was going away from him. Nice easy shots from the rear. I'm kind of amazed Oswald missed the first one!
Yes, solid as a rock. Little kick from them. Totally 100 percent reliable. But I sure would not like getting into a shootout with GIs who have M1s or Tommys with Sten Guns and all I have is that .380!
Deaf
ThomasT
Member
It has been the theory that Oswalds first shot hit the oak tree just below the window where he was sitting and that deflected the bullet and that bullet hit the curb further down the road and a fragment was what hit James Teague in the cheek. You can see where the investigators cut away part of the curb in Dealy Plaza to check for spectrogragh readings to see if Oswalds bullet hit the curb. So far as I remember it was inconclusive.
Since 1963 the tree below the window has grown as trees will do and that has changed the view from Oswalds time but so far as I remember they never found a bullet strike on the tree. But that was the theory. So take what you want from it.
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