Campfire chatting....Lee Harvey Oswald and the Carcano rifle...

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According to a web based inflation calculator, the $19.95 Carcano would have cost $156.48, which is a very reasonable cost. It was not that long ago, (early 1990's) that I purchased new in the grease Lee Enfields for $60.00. Since the supply has dried up, prices have gone up. We have all lived too long, because we remember the "low prices" of the 50's, and 60's, but, if those are adjusted for Government created inflation, you can see how much the Government has debased the currency.

I believe Oswald did it alone and I have stood under the windows of the Texas Book Repository in Dealy Square and seen how close the President was to Oswald. The distances from the window to Kennedy's car were 58 yards to to 88 yards. As a Master Class rifle shooter, Expert Class small bore prone, Bullseye Sharpshooter, I am confident that I could have tagged everyone in the Car had I semi auto rifle, such as a Garand, and with a bolt gun, most of them. I have never shot a scoped Carcano, so I am not sure of the bolt clearance and bolt manipulation time. I have heard that Oswald was left eye dominate and shot off the left shoulder. If this is true, Oswald could have kept his right hand on the bolt knob, which would have made his cyclic rate very fast.

I was around back then and remember the Horror experienced by the Nation. It was as much, if not more, than the trauma experienced by the Nation after 911. At the time, it was beyond the concept of many that some insignificant nut could kill their charismatic President. Thus, the class of 1964 continues with their screwball conspiracy theories all based on the irrationality of the period. Their great President could not have been killed by an insignificant nobody, no, it has to be vast, powerful, hidden, titanic forces. Pawns can't take kings, only Kings can kill Kings.

Today lots of insignificant whack jobs commit mass murder, seems to be on a daily basis, so later generations don't have the problems that the Class of 64 have with the idea that a single wacko could kill a President.

I have handled Carcano's, read about the mechanism, I don't consider the rifle or round poor. The action is inferior to the Mauser, heck the M1903 Springfield is inferior to the 98 Mauser. But the Carcano and its 6.5 round was a proven battle rifle, light weight and light recoiling, and it killed tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of Soldiers. For someone on a budget, as Oswald was virtually broke, this rifle was not a bad choice.

This is a page from Oswald's Marine Score Book. He would have shot this slow fire standing. This is not a great 200 yard group, but, I have seen worse groups at 100 yards! Also, he was shooting an issue rifle, I had one bud who told me that when he qualified with an issue Garand, the rifle was loose and the barrel worn. To show the Range Officer how worn the rifle was, Bud took an issue 30-06 cartridge and inserted it, bullet down, into the muzzle. The barrel was so worn the cartridge stopped at the cartridge case neck. The Range Officer more or less told him "tough luck" and that is the rifle with which he qualified!





 
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If you're ever in the area, it's definitely worth going to the Sixth Floor Museum housed at the former book depository. All of the conspiracy theories seem a lot more plausible before you look down at the road from near where Oswald was perched.... It just wouldn't be nearly as hard of a shot as pictures and films from street level make it look, especially given the fact that he missed the first shot, and the second shot wasn't really a great hit.
So true. When you stand at the window over looking the plaza it is close. Many handgunners could have pulled that off. Yes the Carcano rifles were not Mausers. But the scoped rifles sold for around $26 dollars. A decent job paid $46 dollars a week before taxes. So cheap today was not that cheap on 11/22/1963. I recall that day very well. A friend from New Mexico served with Oswald in the USMC. I doubt we will ever know the facts? Why was the notes on this crime locked away until 2061? Are they hiding something?:uhoh:
 
odd that one bullet went thru JFK, then thru Connely's body, then broke Connely's wrist before stopping at his thigh. Kinda expected with the construction of the mil-surp bullet.
and ANOTHER (presumably identical) bullet essentially exploded with impact on JFK's skull.
The Carcano was a cheap mail order rifle with a cheap scope and mount. and yeah I agree, there is plenty odd about the whole thing. That's why we still have conspiracy theories floating around over 50 years later.

I have a feeling that the bullet that hit President Kennedy in his skull was not a 6.5 Carcano. There is a secret service agent who was in the car behind the President's vehicle who had an accidental discharge with a brand new M-16. It's not mentioned much in the Investigation but I'm pretty sure the 6.5 Carcano bullet is built like a tank and is not that fast. We know all about 55 grain M16 bullets and what a fast light weight constructed bullet can do on impact.. It's just my speculation and mine only that some information was left out of the Warren report that was released to the public. After all, Kennedy had already been hit with a most likely at least one fatal hit from the Carcano. Mr. Kennedy was for all intents and purposes, dead prior to the head shot and I am 100% convinced that Lee Oswald fired the first fatal shots from the book depository window

After Oswald was dead, what difference did it make to tell everything they knew? (discovery) There was going to be NO trial. No discovery was going to be revealed in a trial. Telling everything they knew was not going to change the outcome for either President Kennedy or Lee Oswald. In 25 more years they will open the records and we will get to see if anything was left out. Just like Vince fosters "suicide" records that have also been sealed for 75 years at the demand of the Clintons. We Americans are just not going to be told the whole story until they want us to know it.
 
But to opening post: Oswald worked at a coffee company, a print shop, and finally at the Texas Schoolbook Depository. His income was not very high when he was working. He bought what he could afford. $19.95 was a lot of money in the early 1960s. The Carcano was what was available at the price he could pay.

Oswald's Carcano was the Series 1891, Model 38 short rifle and was made at Terni arsenal in 1940 when Terni was operated by Beretta. Carcanos were made from 1891 to about the end of WWII. The gain twist rifling had been abandoned by 1940 BTW and the later production were conventionally rifled. Oswald's rifle was one of the better production runs and 6.5 italian ammo made by WCC post-WWII was advertised with it in 108 round boxes.

Some Carcanos were imported in atrocious condition and good ammo was hard to find which made for a bad street rep. But many were in very good shape. Except a box of Norma 6.5mm Carcano ammo I saw in the gunstore cost more than the Model 41 long rifle I bought (I got a Lee Loader and reused my empties). I later acquired a 91/38 short rifle.

On the side trip: An impossible shot would be hitting JFK in the head from the grassy knoll with the car passing at 11 mph. There have been a lot of reconstructions of the 6th floor down Elm street shot. [rhetorical] Why haven't the conspiracy buffs attempted a reconstruction of the more difficult grassy knoll to Elm St shot? [/rhetorical] Also, the shot that passed through the flesh of Kennedy's lower neck/upper back and exited his throat, through Connelly's back, lung, rib, through his wrist and into his thigh did not meet the same resistence as the bullet than hit Kennedy's skull bone. Reconstructions with the same ammo (Western Cartridge Co., 160gr FMJ, post WWII Greek Army contract surplus) showed on a simulated skull that the bullet yawed and split at the crimping chanellure, tiny hole going in the back of a skull, two or more large fragments exploding out on exit.
 
I've seen the shots replicated twice on History/Discovery, one of those tests used ballistic gel and simulated bones. The magic bullet wasn't so magic. They used the same ammo from the same era (think it was Western brand, not surplus) and a run of the mill rifle. Fault them if they didn't get the same lot number, otherwise I'd say totally possible.

Plenty of gun clubs and law enforcement tried to replicate the 'Oswald shot' and many it seems got the ranges wrong or the speed of the vehicle wrong.

I've read a lot of books on the subject too. I don't doubt a number of agencies played CYA in the aftermath, and much of that lead to a wide ranging series of theories.

Yeah I think Oswald was the shooter. Mobbed up crazy Jack Ruby is the part that still bugs me, but that's off topic for this forum.
 
Add me to the list of people here who have been to Dealy Plaza. Add me to the list of people who believe Lee Oswald was the shooter, and acted alone.

If you are decent at throwing rocks, you can just about throw one across Dealy Plaza. It's small...about 70-ish yards across. Oswald was a Marine for slightly less than three years. Whether he ever qualified or not doesn't matter...he had some experience shooting, and we can all agree on this point.

At less than 100 yards, on an all but stationary target, almost anyone with a few months experience shooting could make that shot, with almost anything that goes "bang."
 
The car was at walking speed, that means lead was one head diameter or so. One shot missed, corrected and the rest is history.

Yes, the left was in some sort of reverential haze over the Kennedy's. But a lot of us were not. I was not anti-Kennedy, just didn't get the vibe. Mom and Dad did so I kept my head down. But he was a bragging swaggering figure. He pushed the Russians back, screwed up the Cuba invasion, tee'd off some Latin American neighbors, got under the skin of the North Vietnamese, and endorsed Booby's attack on the MOB... There was a LOT of bad blood around looking for a way to bring the Kennedy's down and they (whoever they are...) did just that with finality.

Presidents get shot at. Some die. Two Kennedy's in a row - a LOT less likely without help and planning. That might be find crazy shooters and push them along. Or it might mean help them reach their goals. We have alphabet agencies that do that worldwide for a living. So do others ...
 
The Warren Commision thing seems a little off to me.

Why wouldn't a loser use a Carcano? Seems like a perfect match.
 
I forgot my other question...I did not find a definitive answer to this......did someone actually repeated the 3 Oswald shots within the same time interval in the same conditions?? (moving target, shooting from above, etc..)
I keep reading from some that it was an impossible feat never repeated while others said it could be done....what is the truth??

I believe the genesis of this is supposedly that some marines who'd never trained on a bolt action had trouble doing it in the time interval, but as was said above, the "feat" has been duplicated independently many times in simulated setups. If I remember right even CBS news did one for a 25th anniversary special about it, they got a few NRA hi-power competitors and all did what Oswald did, I think one even got off five shots with five hits in the time interval.
 
I have a feeling that the bullet that hit President Kennedy in his skull was not a 6.5 Carcano. There is a secret service agent who was in the car behind the President's vehicle who had an accidental discharge with a brand new M-16. It's not mentioned much in the Investigation but I'm pretty sure the 6.5 Carcano bullet is built like a tank and is not that fast. We know all about 55 grain M16 bullets and what a fast light weight constructed bullet can do on impact.. It's just my speculation and mine only that some information was left out of the Warren report that was released to the public. After all, Kennedy had already been hit with a most likely at least one fatal hit from the Carcano. Mr. Kennedy was for all intents and purposes, dead prior to the head shot and I am 100% convinced that Lee Oswald fired the first fatal shots from the book depository window

After Oswald was dead, what difference did it make to tell everything they knew? (discovery) There was going to be NO trial. No discovery was going to be revealed in a trial. Telling everything they knew was not going to change the outcome for either President Kennedy or Lee Oswald. In 25 more years they will open the records and we will get to see if anything was left out. Just like Vince fosters "suicide" records that have also been sealed for 75 years at the demand of the Clintons. We Americans are just not going to be told the whole story until they want us to know it.
An M-16 in 1961? Are you sure? As I recall at the Navy's NAD later surface warfare center these rifles did not show up until 1964. I could be wrong. I may be mistaken? If so just ignore this. That was long ago.:thumbup:

http://www.navsea.navy.mil/Home/Warfare-Centers/NSWC-Crane/
 
An M-16 in 1961? Are you sure? As I recall at the Navy's NAD later surface warfare center these rifles did not show up until 1964. I could be wrong. I may be mistaken? If so just ignore this. That was long ago.:thumbup:

http://www.navsea.navy.mil/Home/Warfare-Centers/NSWC-Crane/


I believe it was technically an AR-15, not an official M-16. I don't know about 1961, but it was definitely carried by George Hickey on November 22, 1963:

250238a0bc266522f34b4eba060066d0.jpg
 
My grandfather went to his grave endorsing his theory that Hoover had JFK shot because syphillis was rotting his brain. Interesting idea, and he had a few good examples of erratic behavior to support it, but I don't really buy it. Oswald *may* have been encouraged, or to some extent supported at a local level, but primarily acted alone, IMO.

Stephen King wrote a really good novel about Oswald- most of it just a really well researched narrative of the events leading up to the day:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/11/22/63

Having been less than a year old when it happened, I found it a really good look at the times. Highly recommended
 
The circumstances of the shot have been duplicated many times. I have seen at least two different ones. Given the distances involved and the speed of the motorcade, almost any functional rifle would have been sufficient.

I can't believe this thread is still open given all the tinfoil hattery being posted.
 
Food for thought -

No such thing as the magic bullet -

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...debunked_why_the_magic_bullet_and_grassy.html
The back seat, where JFK rode, was three inches higher than the front seat, where Connally rode. Once that adjustment was made, the line from Oswald’s rifle to Kennedy’s upper back to Connally’s ribcage and wrist appeared absolutely straight. There was no need for a magic bullet.


Oswald wasn't that good of a marksman -

http://22november1963.org.uk/lee-harvey-oswald-marksman-sharpshooter
In the late 1950s, US Marines were categorized at three levels of shooting ability, according to the scores they achieved at a standardized test of their accuracy:
  1. Expert: a score of 220 to 250.
  2. Sharpshooter: 210 to 219.
  3. Marksman: 190 to 209.
According to his Marine score card (Commission Exhibit 239), Oswald was tested twice:
  1. In December 1956, after “a very intensive 3 weeks’ training period” (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.11, p.302), Oswald scored 212: two marks above the minimum for a ‘sharpshooter’.
  2. In May 1959, he scored 191: one mark above the minimum for a ‘marksman’.
 
Nov 1963 I was in study hall in first year highschool when the news came over the speakers. I bought and actually read the Warren Report and a volume of supporting evidence, and Gerald Ford's book on the inside workings of the Commission, and others since then, including some serious alternate theory and some just whacko. I'll give credit to Stephen King for actually doing some research for his book 11/22/63. Oliver Stone's movie JFK is self contradictory (anyone notice that how "David Ferry" and "Clay Shaw" acted depended on the POV of who was talking about them?)

The list of people conspiring against JFK is long: anti-Castro Cubans, CIA and mercenaries who felt betrayed by the Bay of Pigs Fiasco; Nikita Kruschev; pro-Castro Cubans and Castro over CIA plots against Castro; Mafia who felt they had helped elect JFK and and the Kennedys owed them; people with a history of killing their enemies were plotting against JFK. Then this self righteous lone nut loser comes in from left field and kills JFK on his own, forcing investigations that pick out threads of the various plots and try to weave those threads into a grand unified conspiracy theory, when it was LHO who killed JFK out of his grandiose ego (LHO's writings indicate he was one deluded SJW).

To some the idea that the POTUS could be murdered by a lone nut loser is as absurd as suggesting that JFK could have been killed by a piano falling off a building, stuff like that happens to only to mere mortals, not to idealized idols. And if he had to die by shooting, a low grade gun like the Carcano is almost like a final insult. Campfire chatting....Lee Harvey Oswald and the Carcano rifle... Why couldn't it have been the best KGB assassin with a top grade sniper rifle? Why him? Why that?

BTW, in the accounting of the evidence, there was 1 unfired cartridge, three empty cartridge casings, and one six round empty clip in the magazine of the gun (empty clips don't always fall out of a Carcano and get pushed out when a loaded clip is inserted from the top). That implies that Oswald was down to four rounds, and that attempts to duplicate the timing of shots (8 seconds of the first was a miss, 4.6 seconds of the 2nd was a miss) should start with a clip with four rounds, not six. It also implies Oswald fired the other 104 rounds in target practice and his failed attempt to shoot retired General Walker.
 

A Marine marksman is better than 99.9999% of the shooters in the general population. At that time Marines spent two weeks a year at the range and a Marine Expert was a pretty good shot. The poor marksmanship skills of the general population are a continual surprise. To shoot on the CMP Bullseye range, you have to qualify. This is because these electronic targets are $15,000 apiece and the CMP does not want the electronics shot to pieces. Qualification consists of placing ten shots on a standard Bullseye target, about two feet by two feet, at 25 yards (for 25 yard qualification) or at 50 yards (for 50 yard qualification). The day I qualified there was a huge pile of 380 auto cases around the qualification point and the range officer told me of a group of shooters who came up with their 380 Auto pistols and not one of them qualified at 25 yards. I am proud to say, I qualified at 50 yards with my 45.




Anyway, when the general population, who don't know what end the round come out, reads nonsense such as the link, they don't understand the skill levels it takes just to be a Marine Marksman or Sharpshooter.
 
I read one guy's theory that his head shot was caused accidentally by a secret service guy's AR 15 in the follow up car. He fell back when they sped up and his finger was on his trigger. The 5.56 exploded JFK's head. One theory among many.
I saw a documentary about that,and of all the theories out there it is the one I would bet on,.The agent in the documentary was George Hickey like Gtscotty mentions in another post..The secret service changed their policy to keeping the chamber empty on the AR 15 right after it happened according to the documentary..
 
I always doubted the JFK story, and the choice of a Carcano was one of the reasons...until I owned a Carcano carbine a few years ago.
I found my Carcano carbine to be very slick and fast to operate, and the 6.5 Carcano cartridge was low recoil in and accurate. The enbloc clip loaded fast.
In fact, a semiautomatic 6.5 Carcano would be a nice shooter.
Still doubt the JFK story, though.
 
Totally off-topic: A joke making the rounds in Texas was, "LBJ missed deer season that year, because Marina wouldn't give his rifle back."

Ruby ended any chance to ever discover Oswald's motivation. The backgrounds of the many people involved in Oswald's peregrinations made it very difficult to create a factual summary for the "why" of the tragedy. That has resulted in arguments, speculations and conspiracy theories.
 
1. The series of shots have been duplicated and done with greater accuracy and speed than Oswald did with the original rifle by the FBI and with Carcano carbines set up the same way by "civilians" a number of times.......the shots are believable.

2. The US Army wound ballistics lab using a 6.5 Carcano and RNFMJ ammo demonstrated that a human skull full of ballistic Gel would display the same sort of spray TOWARDS the shooter as seen on the Zapruder film.

3. a 6.5 Carcano loaded to a velocity estimated to be the same as when Connolly's wrist was struck exebited the same slight damage as that bullet when fired into a caraver wrist. The bullet was not pristine despite unofficial reports and had a slight flat spot and bend BTW

(Dr. Martin Fackler performed the tests in 2. and 3. and showed me some photos of the results he had)

4. Some studies of the film of the shooting support the idea that the Connelly bullet actually went pretty straight .

5. Whatever rifle might have been better, the Carcano and crappy surplus ammo did do the job.

A friend of mine always wondered why he was never contacted about the shooting. He was hitch hiking from Florida to California and had been picked up by local LEO for hitch hiking in the City of Dallas and transported across town while his info was processed the day before the shooting. He and the deputy spoke at length about the package he was carrying and he even showed it to the LEO. It was a scoped G43 he had spent most of his cash on in Florida. Lot of German sniper this and German Sniper that and the LEO commented that with the visit he had been warned of the next day it was not a good idea to be trapsing about with such a thing. Said the Deputy really like the gun. He said he spent weeks waiting for the knock on the door.

I was once offered the opportunity to handle the actual Oswald rifle but time got in the way. It is in the FBI museum in DC or was 15 years ago.

-kBob
 
I forgot my other question...I did not find a definitive answer to this......did someone actually repeated the 3 Oswald shots within the same time interval in the same conditions?? (moving target, shooting from above, etc..)
I keep reading from some that it was an impossible feat never repeated while others said it could be done....what is the truth??

I have seen it recreated from a tower - they were able to duplicate the shot. Carcano's in good condition are far better rifles than most would believe.
 
On the ballistics, this is the best I've seen:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/cold-case-jfk.html

Especially the part where they get access to some previously sealed medical information. The fracture pattern of the skull clearly indicates the bullet came from the direction of the book repository window, not the grassy knoll.

I've said this before, but I'm old enough to repeat myself. It's the political left that is really fueling the conspiracy fires in order to blame it on "right-wing racism" (even though the KKK were Democrats at the time).

I had never seen this article before, but apparently George Will agrees with me, somwhat, and says it better than I could:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...252bdb14df5_story.html?utm_term=.e8c67cb63e64

The transformation of a murder by a marginal man into a killing by a sick culture began instantly — before Kennedy was buried. The afternoon of the assassination, Chief Justice Earl Warren ascribed Kennedy’s “martyrdom” to “the hatred and bitterness that has been injected into the life of our nation by bigots.” The next day, James Reston, the New York Times luminary, wrote in a front-page story that Kennedy was a victim of a “streak of violence in the American character,” noting especially “the violence of the extremists on the right.”

Never mind that adjacent to Reston’s article was a Times report on Oswald’s Communist convictions and associations. A Soviet spokesman, too, assigned “moral responsibility” for Kennedy’s death to “Barry Goldwater and other extremists on the right.
 
Days before the JFK Assassination Oswald was removed from a Dallas rifle Range. He was hitting others targets and the berms trying to zero his rifle. He did used a .38 Special to kill Dallas Police Officer JD Tippett. At least that is my memory of the events.
The little 3/4" tube Tasco scope was like looking at the World through the bottom of a Coke bottle. JFK was shot at a distance of 88.333 yards. It would not have required a target rifle or trained marksman to accomplish those shots.
We were watching this unfold on a 13" Black and White TV. My pal and I were awaiting the announcement of the rifle used in the shooting. A Dallas Detective appeared with the rifle calling it a German Mauser. We began screaming you idiot that is not a Mauser.:D
This was the beginning of the end of Mail Order firearms. Klien's Sporting Goods the Major gun supplier sold the rifle by mail to Oswald. Ending mail order sales was to end gun violence?o_O
 
This was the beginning of the end of Mail Order firearms. Klien's Sporting Goods the Major gun supplier sold the rifle by mail to Oswald. Ending mail order sales was to end gun violence?o_O
And the beginning of the idea of "registration", the 4473, and background checks -- despite the fact that the recovered rifle was traced to Oswald in less than 24 hours using normal business records before the days of computerized data bases.

The transformation of a murder by a marginal man into a killing by a sick culture began instantly — before Kennedy was buried. The afternoon of the assassination, Chief Justice Earl Warren ascribed Kennedy’s “martyrdom” to “the hatred and bitterness that has been injected into the life of our nation by bigots.” The next day, James Reston, the New York Times luminary, wrote in a front-page story that Kennedy was a victim of a “streak of violence in the American character,” noting especially “the violence of the extremists on the right.”

Never mind that adjacent to Reston’s article was a Times report on Oswald’s Communist convictions and associations. A Soviet spokesman, too, assigned “moral responsibility” for Kennedy’s death to “Barry Goldwater and other extremists on the right.

And we thought lying about leftist actions and blaming us started with Trump. :)
 
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