Other calibers than 44 and 36 i C&B revolvers

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

To expand on what Hawg said, back in Percussion (Cap & Ball) days, caliber was called out by Bore diameter, not Rifling Groove diameter. The Bore is the size of the hole that was bored, or drilled into the barrel, before the rifling was cut. So a '44' or '36' caliber percussion revolver would have a .440 or so hole bored down the barrel. After the rifling was cut, the rifling diameter would be slightly larger than the bore diameter, and the lands of the rifling would be all that remained of the original bore diameter.

So a 44 caliber percussion revolver would actually have a rifling groove diameter of around .451 or so. Which happens to be the rifling groove diameter for 45 Colt. Which is why modern Cap & Ball '44' caliber revolvers can be fitted with a cartridge conversion cylinder that will fire 45 Colt ammunition. Like this old EuroArms 1858 Remington which is wearing a 45 Colt conversion cylinder






I'm not exactly sure what would be the actual rifling groove diameter of a 36 caliber percussion revolver, probably somewhere around .370 or so.

This is an original Colt Richards Conversion revolver. This model was made by converting the Colt Model 1860 Army 44 caliber Cap & Ball revolvers to fire cartridges. As I said, the Bore diameter (the hole drilled in the barrel) was 44 caliber, but I have slugged this barrel and the rifling grooves are actually pretty close to .451 diameter. Pictured with this revolver are four antique 44 Colt cartridges. The actual diameter of the bullets is close to .451 or so, so they will grab the .451 rifling of the barrel. The original cylinders of the Colt 1860 Army had no modern step to narrow the chamber down to the size of the bullet as most revolver cylinders do. The chambers were bored about .451 through, for a .451 or .454 ball. When the 44 Colt cartridge was developed for this revolver, the bullet had was what was known as a heeled bullet. Meaning the rear most portion of the bullet, the part that was inserted into the cartridge case, was the same diameter as the inside of the cartridge case. The outer diameter of the bullet was the same diameter as the outside of the case, just like modern 22 Rimfire ammunition. So the name 44 Colt was actually misleading, because the bullet was about .451 in diameter, but that was the name of the cartridge.





Here is an antique 31 caliber Colt 1849 Pocket Revolver.






This is an antique Bacon Mfg Co 31 caliber Pocket Percussion revolver. This one has been polished to remove all blue, so it is currently 'in the white'.






Ruger Old Army






I just measured the chambers of this Old Army, and they are running around .453 in diameter, which is why .457 lead balls are always recommended for this model, in order to shave off a thin ring of lead. The rifling grooves, like most other '44' caliber cap & ball revolvers are about .451 in diameter. Which is why a 45 Colt conversion cylinder can be purchased for this model. So Ruger is playing a little game changing the name between 44 and 45. It is really a '44' caliber revolver, which actually has rifling grooves around .451, so it can fire modern 45 Colt ammunition if it is equipped with a cartridge conversion cylinder.

 

[hawg]

Showed pictures of some hippie looking character shooting it

HEY!!! I resemble that remark.

This is an antique Bacon Mfg Co 31 caliber Pocket Percussion revolver. This one has been polished to remove all blue, so it is currently 'in the white'.

View attachment 1121318

It also had the engraving polished off. This was one of mine.

 

[TTv2]

Still just a 12 gauge.

Yeah, but add both bores together and you get 1.46 inches, which is like a 1.5 bore and that's pretty big.

 

[hawg]

Yeah, but add both bores together and you get 1.46 inches, which is like a 1.5 bore and that's pretty big.

Snicker, snicker.

 

[paul harm]

I believe the Remington was called a pocket pistol. I gave a fellow shotgunner at the club a $100 for one, and it was in like new condition. So if I wanted a cartridge pistol for $230 or so [ buying a cartridge cylinder ] I could get one and then have both worlds. I don't think I'd ever go out and buy a 32 cartridge gun for more, and even the 230 is more than I want to pay. I just thought the little pocket pistol looked so cool and for a hundred, what the heck. U tube has a fellow named " 54duelist " and he's shooting one in both C&B and cartridge. The C&B seems to hit the metal target pretty hard. I was surprised. Maybe the noise it made was misleading. Anyways, I wouldn't want to get hit with one.

 

[StrawHat]

Colt did produce some prototype 1851 revolver in 40 caliber. They were trying to produce a revolver like the 1851 but in a larger caliber. Co-incidently, the Bessemer process steel became available and Colt was able to produce the Model 1860. Ever the showman, Colt advertised it was made with the new “Silver Steel”!


Kevin

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Co-incidently, the Bessemer process steel became available and Colt was able to produce the Model 1860. Ever the showman, Colt advertised it was made with the new “Silver Steel”!

Yes, ever the showman, Colt claimed he was using Silver Steel. In fact there is no silver at all in Silver Steel, it gets its name from the high polish it often gets.

Regarding the Bessemer Process, if memory serves, it was patented in 1856. Craftsmen had been producing steel as early as 4,000 year ago, but always in very small quantities, and at high cost.

The Bessemer Process made mass production of relatively inexpensive steel possible.

However, I tend to doubt the 1860 Colt was made from steel. As late as 1883 the Colt Single Action Army frame and cylinder were made of malleable iron. Not until mid 1883 did SAA frames and cylinders start to be manufactured with low-medium carbon steels.

Up the river in Springfield, MASS, it was the same story. The 1875 Smith and Wesson Schofield model had a frame made of iron.

The Winchester Model 1873 was originally made with a forged iron frame, steel frames did not appear until 1880.

So I doubt the 1860 Colt was made from steel. Can you refer to any source that says they were made from steel?

Why iron continued to be used by major arms manufacturers so late after the Bessemer process was patented I do not know. Perhaps the early Bessemer steel was not suitable for firearms.

 

[hawg]

The 1860 cylinders were made from steel and I believe the barrels were. The frames were wrought iron.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Then why in the world did they return to iron with the SAA in 1873?

 

[hawg]

Then why in the world did they return to iron with the SAA in 1873?

They didn't. The cylinders and barrels were steel from 1860 on. They never made the 1860 frame out of steel. Why? I dunno. Remington went to steel early on.

 

[dickydalton]

1863 Pocket

• dickydalton
• Feb 5, 2021
• 1

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

They didn't. The cylinders and barrels were steel from 1860 on. They never made the 1860 frame out of steel. Why? I dunno. Remington went to steel early on.

I beg to differ. According to Kuhnhausen in his book The Colt Single Action Revolvers, A Shop Manual Volumes 1 & 2:

Frame Material Notes: mid page 70:

1. Early black powder model S.A.A. frames up to about s/n 96,000 (up to about mid 1883) were made of malleable iron.

2. Intermediate S.A.A. frames between approx. s/n 96,000 and 180,000 (mid 1883 to mid 1898) vary but were apparently made of transitional materials generally similar to modern low-medium carbon steels. The lowest carbon content found in intermediate s/n S.A.A. frames tested to date is approx. .0155, indicating the possibility that early formulations of 1015~1018, or higher carbon type steels may have been used in many frames of this era.

3. Although there are exceptions, frames manufactured after s/n 180,000 appear to have been made from medium range carbon steels. The lowest carbon content found in the after s/n 180,000 frames tested was approx. .0213, possibly indicating that 1020~1027 or slightly higher, carbon, or similar steels may have been used in these frames.


Bottom of page 71:

(1) 1st Generation S.A.A. cylinder material changes began to occur at about the same time that S.A.A. frames were being metallurgically updated. Cylinders prior to approx. s/n 96,000 (mid 1883) were made from materials generally resembling high grade malleable iron. Original cylinders from approx. s/n 96,000 to about 180,000 (mid 1898) were made from transitional low/medium grade carbon type steels. These cylinders and their parent frames were not factory guaranteed for smokeless powder cartridges. Cylinders after frame s/n 180,000 (mid 1898) began to be made from medium carbon type steels. Later versions of these cylinders were better and more uniformly heat treated. S.A.A. revolvers with cylinders of this final type were factory guaranteed in 1900 for standard factory load smokeless powder cartridges.


(2) 1st Generation 357 Magnum cylinders were made from fine grade, higher tensile strength ordnance quality gun steel. These cylinder blanks, identified by a 5 pointed star imprinted on the front, turn up on other caliber S.A.A.’s made during, and after 1935. (The 357 Magnum was introduced in 1935.)

 

[Mark_Mark]

dang you gentlemen know your history! keep going!

question, my gen2 1964 SAA has a nice case color hardening on it. Can you old fashion case color steel, the same way as iron?

 

[hawg]

I don't know why Colt would use backwards technology on the 73's. I don't have Kuhnhausen's book but I've always heard the cylinders were steel in the 73's and the frames were wrought iron until 1898.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Can you old fashion case color steel, the same way as iron?

Yes.

Both iron and steel can be Case Hardened.

While the colors can be very pretty, the point of Case Hardening is to infuse extra carbon into the surface of the iron or steel. This results in a very thin 'case' of harder metal. Case Hardening goes back to the days before modern heat treating methods were available. Case Hardening the iron or steel allowed the body of the metal to remain relatively ductile, while the outer surface was harder, to prevent wear.

The pretty colors of Case Hardening are just a side effect of the process, they have no effect on how hard the surface is. During the 19th Century the gun buying public became enamored with the colors of Case Hardening, so each manufacturer developed their Case Hardening techniques to produce the maximum effects with the colors. The colors of true bone Case Hardening are relatively fragile. They tend to fade over time. Harsh chemicals can wipe the colors right off, but the hardened 'case' will not be affected.

Getting a little bit off topic, but these 2nd Gen Colts still retain their brilliant colors.







Smith and Wesson has always Case Hardened the hammers and triggers of their blued guns.. At least until very recently, anyway. I forget when this one shipped, probably around 1915 or so. The hammer and trigger still show plenty of color.






S&W even managed to obtain a trade mark on their Case Hardening process for a while, to keep cheap, imitation revolvers from being imported from Europe.






Next time you are in the hardware store, look at those black machine screws. They have been carburized, which is another name for Case Hardening.




Sorry for getting so far off topic.

 

[hawg]

Remington is one that didn't do case hardening as their frames were steel.

 

[paul harm]

Remington did with their 1873 to 1900 shotguns. I collect them and many times have paid good money for a redo on the receivers so they once again look like they did when new. Bachelder over in Grand Rapids, Mi knew what compounds to mix for each manufacture [ at least with shotguns - Parker, L.C.Smith, Fox, Remington, etc ] to get the correct colors. The Remingtons were steel so CCHing must have been done more for the colors than to harden the surface. I had a early Parker Lifter, the early 1870s, that used a soft iron frame. It kept spreading and the barrels would become loose, or should say " become off face ". Redoing it solved the problem.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Since we are off topic and talking about Case Hardening.....

The frame and side plates of this old Stevens hammer double SXS shotgun were Case Hardened. Notice how the colors continue across the side plates onto the frame, indicating to me that the frame and side plates were Case Hardened in an assembled state at the same time. I think I see a little bit of color on the hammer too. This shotgun was probably made around 1908 or so, so the colors have faded a bit, but they are still there. I have a few other old Stevens shotguns, and I seem to recall they have some colors on the frame too.






As has been mentioned, both iron and steel can be Case Hardened. The process involves heating the parts in a furnace in a closed container in the presence of carbon bearing materials, often leather or bone. Then the parts are suddenly quenched in water or oil, I forget which. Heating the parts in the furnace transfers carbon from the leather or bone into the surface of the steel, creating the hardened surface. The quenching is what creates the colors. Colts have had steel frames for many, many years, but Colt still continues to Case Harden frames. At least the last time I looked they did. There probably is not much point to Case Hardening modern steel, as Colt does, because the steel is probably already pretty tough. I suspect Colt continues to Case Harden their frames because they have always done so, and it is a good marketing tool. This 2nd Gen Colt shipped in the 1960s and still shows very vibrant colors on the frame,






This 2nd Gen Colt shipped in 1973. The colors have faded a bit over time.






This Bisley Colt shipped in 1907. It was well cared for over the years and the colors on the frame are still quite vibrant.






This Bisley Colt shipped in 1909. Not as well cared for over the years as the other Bisley. The blue has mostly worn off the steel. Some of the original blue can still be seen in the protected areas of the flutes of the cylinder and on the back strap above the grip. The case colors of the frame are almost all gone except for the protected area near the barrel. Just the result of many years of hard use.






As I said earlier, the colors of bone Case Hardening are quite fragile. This 2nd Gen Colt shipped in 1968. Before I bought it some clown decided to 'age' it artificially. He probably used Naval Jelly or some other harsh chemical. Notice there is only a blotchy hint of the Case Colors left on the frame. But the hardened surface is still there, despite being man handled by Naval Jelly. The rust colored patina on the barrel and the dark cylinder are my fault, from years of shooting Black Powder and not always cleaning this old girl promptly. If you look carefully you should be able to see where a little bit of steel was welded onto the top of the front sight, where the original steel had been removed. The 'new' steel is still bright and shiny, and has not taken on the rust colored patina.






True bone Case Hardening is an expensive process. So many modern companies have developed less expensive alternatives to simulate the colors. When the Ruger Vaquero first came out, a chemical process was used to simulate the colors of bone Case Hardening. This early 'original model' Vaquero (the big one) shipped in 1994. It has very vibrant colors, although they are a bit more blotchy than those created by true bone Case Hardening. Ruger hardens their Investment Cast steel parts all the way through the metal with modern heat treating methods, so there is no point to Case Hardening them. It just looks nice. Ruger continued applying their simulated colors when the New Vaquero (the smaller one) was introduced in 2005, but discontinued it shortly after because some of them developed rust on the surface. Currently, all New Vaqueros have blued frames.






I saw a video years ago of Uberti dipping parts into a hot chemical bath. That is how Uberti was simulating the colors of true bone Case Hardening. This Uberti Cattleman shows the colors on the frame simulated by that process. Interestingly enough, Uberti was also using this process on their hammers, which Colt does not do. I read some notes by a gunsmith years ago stating these parts did have a hardened layer on the outside, he needed to cut through the hardened layer to do some smithing of the parts.





About 400 or so early antique 1860 Henry rifles had iron frames instead of the bronze frame normally associated with this model. There is some evidence that these iron framed Henry rifles had case hardened frames.

My Uberti replica of the 1860 Iron Frame Henry (the frame is actually steel) shows the colors imparted by Uberti's chemical bath treatment. The colors are quite nice, but notice how the colors of the side plate do not blend with the colors of the frame. Unlike the Stevens shotgun pictured earlier, this indicates the parts were not 'case hardened' in an assembled state.






This Uberti replica of the Winchester Model 1873 has some very blotchy colors. To me they do not look at all like the colors left behind with real bone Case Hardening.






As I said earlier, Smith and Wesson has always Case Hardened hammers and triggers. This little 38 Double Action, 4th Model, shipped in 1898. The parts still have vibrant colors.






This S&W First Model Schofield shipped in 1875. The hammer, trigger, and trigger guard still exhibit strong colors.

 

[hawg]

I don't know about Uberti now but in 2000 there was no surface hardening. I tried filing a hidden part of the hammer on my Uberti/Cimarron 1873 and it cut like butter. A file will skate across case hardening.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I recently did some some work on a new Uberti that was " color case hardened" during the course of tuning and repairing it a majority of the colors were rubbed off. So much for true case hardening.

 

[paul harm]

The chemical coloring isn't gonna make the steel any harder. It just colors it similar to the old CCHing process. Even back years ago cyanide was sometimes used to fake the CCHing.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Maybe so, it don't stay on very well either.

 

[hawg]

And yet people will still swear that Uberti's are actually case hardened because the ads say so.

 

[Mark_Mark]

And yet people will still swear that Uberti's are actually case hardened because the ads say so.

I thought it was until you guy showed me what real Bone Fire case hardening is.

 

[webrx]

no pics handy, but Ill get some, I have an 1863 Remington ASM clone in .31 and a Philadelphia derringer in .41, rifles in 45 and 50, and revolvers in 36 and 44

d