Our range may start using surveillance cameras

[Rembrandt]

Times have changed and our range may look into installing surveillance cameras.

In recent years we have noticed and increase in black rifles, HD shotguns useage, and a trend to more tactical practice techniques. With that trend we are seeing an increase in range bad behavior. Shooters bringing out appliances for targets, shooting up target frames with rapid fire, etc. Not a large range so there's no full time range officer, everyone is on the honor system to behave themselves.

We are discussing the possibility of installing surveillance cameras to "help" users follow the rules.

 

[orionengnr]

My indoor range has used surveillance cameras for the last (at least) 6 years. One RO can keep an eye on all 7 lanes at any given moment (if he is paying attention, and most do).

I have no problem with that. If someone is sweeping others, or rapid-firing, he is notified immediately of that transgression.

A proactive approach is preferable to an "OMG, I never saw it coming" instance.

 

[Mamertine]

I used to work security when I was in college. I spent a decent amount of time watching security cameras. Unless you are willing to spend a lot of money and put up a lot of high quality cameras and buy nice digital recorders when you review the camera footage it you will have a grainy picture of an unidentifiable person breaking the rules. That said it is intersting to note that the presence of cameras is a deterrent and it is often enough to keep people in line.

 

[MrWesson]

I shoot at ranges that allow "rapid fire" as I like practice defensive shooting and its hard to practice double taps with a silly 5 second per shot rule :banghead:.

 

[SSN Vet]

The gun club I belong to has discussed the same thing and I'm all for it.

We put a 16 camera Panosonic "nanny cam" system in at work and though I'm not crazy about it, it has come in very handy at times. Mostly, reviewing the footage after a work place injury. About half of our injuries are off camera or obscured. But the other half have been recoreded clear as a bell. And yes... peoples stories change after they find out that it's all on tape. We've also caught some major, major misbehavior on tape and terminated the culprits the next day.

The Panosonic system is awesome... I think we paid ~$15 K for it.. not sure. The owners go on vacation to FL and watch the nanny cams live from their living room. The poor production manager gets regular calls to explain why so and so is screwing around, etc...

Any system has to have 1.) Clear resolution and 2.) digital recordings that can be retrieved days after the event.

 

[ThePunisher'sArmory]

Cameras may be a good idea. They will keep the good people good and the bad people...well hopefully less bad. I can understand if things are getting shot up....and appliances? WTH? Thats just stupid .

 

[Prion]

We have cameras at our outdoor range. I think it's prudent.

 

[kingpin008]

I shoot at ranges that allow "rapid fire" as I like practice defensive shooting and its hard to practice double taps with a silly 5 second per shot rule . :banghead:

Um, good for you? What's that got to do with the conversation?

IMHO, while I think that cameras sound like a great idea for curbing the type of misdeeds at the OP's range, I agree with Mamertine - they need to be of a high enough quality that a positive ID is able to be made in the case of vandalism/rule violations. Might sound like a "no duh" kinda thing, but it's easy to skimp on quality A/V equipment, only to kick yourself in the end.

 

[omegaflame]

Our outdoor county rifle range has them. I noticed them when I first went there and never thought about them again until just now.

I think they are good because it's one guy watching something like 50 lanes.

 

[esheato]

If all you're trying to do is modify behavior, why spend the money on a real system when you can just buy fake camera bodies and trick them into thinking they're being recorded?

 

[lonegunman]

A range over on the coast started with cameras, then mikes to monitor people complaining about the range nazi's behavior, then the range nazi's started screaming and yelling at anyone on the property, then they threatened the local county attorney and inspector when they came on the property. Now they are being sued, pestered and zoned to death slowly but there county and the neighbors.

Cameras for security is one thing, Cameras for any other reason is going to be trouble.

 

[MinnMooney]

Here's a vote in favor of the cameras.

I hope that you catch the folks who are ruining it for all the rest.

 

[MrWesson]

Um, good for you? What's that got to do with the conversation?

IMHO, while I think that cameras sound like a great idea for curbing the type of misdeeds at the OP's range, I agree with Mamertine - they need to be of a high enough quality that a positive ID is able to be made in the case of vandalism/rule violations. Might sound like a "no duh" kinda thing, but it's easy to skimp on quality A/V equipment, only to kick yourself in the end.

Settle down I was responding to the guy before me who associated rapid fire with muzzle sweeping the crowd.

As far as surveillance cameras to enforce the rules I don't see any other option.

I would also use an networked infrared setup.

 

[PCGS65]

Soon everywhere we go there will be a camera watching.

 

[doc2rn]

My old club had to put them up for insurance reasons. Evidently there was a rash of people in the winter months who went to a range, rented a gun, and subsequently self terminated.

 

[geekWithA.45]

What problem is really trying to be solved here?

I notice that the OP describes only one objectively objectionable outcome as "bad range behavior", that of shooting up target frames.

The rest is all subjective, and frankly, a matter of opinion. There's really nothing wrong per se with rapid fire, target appliances, or Evil Black Guns.

Considering that the purpose of a gun club is to serve it's members, and that the trend of a good portion of some members is towards a more dynamic style of shooting, I would say that its probably time for the club to re-examine its underlying premises, and see if there isn't a faction problem developing.



I also note that security cams are consistently more expensive than 2x4s.

When it comes to these things, there are really only two questions that are important:

1) Is there any genuinely unsafe behavior happening?
2) Are any rounds leaving the range?


The other thing to remember is the less of (formerly) Great Britain: Cameras don't prevent squat. All they do is gather evidence for forensic analysis after the fact.

 

[buck460XVR]

What problem is really trying to be solved here?


The rest is all subjective, and frankly, a matter of opinion. There's really nothing wrong per se with rapid fire, target appliances, or Evil Black Guns.

I believe the OP is not addressing the use of target appliances, but the use of appliances for targets, i.e. T.V.s, computer monitors, microwaves, etc and leaving the remains laying where they fall when they're done.

I belong to a small sportsman's club and we have a combination trap/rifle/handgun range. It basically sits empty other than the weekly league night and the month before gun deer season. We have the same problems as the OP. Problem does not really come from members, but by non-members. The parking lot is accessed off a public roadway so anyone can drive in and carry their gear to the range. We too are considering the use of camera's to prevent trespassing, vandalism and abuse, but have not obtained the funds yet to do it. A month ago at trap league night we discovered someone had brought a bunch of old computer monitors and shot them off the roofs of the trap houses. Not only did they leave a 'ell of a mess, but they shot the roofs full of holes. Stupid is what stupid does.

 

[geekWithA.45]

but the use of appliances for targets, i.e. T.V.s, computer

EGAD.

Well, then. That certainly is objectionable.

I was thinking self healing targets, gongs, swingers, etc.

 

[oneounceload]

Since there are no ROs there, what makes you think someone won't shoot the cameras?

We had a public shooting park where I used to live, and the same thing happened - appliances, TVs, glass bottles - then the yahoos even started to shoot the 6X6 supports that held up the roof, shot holes in the roof and then started shooting the concrete block shooting benches. It only takes a few to give everyone a bad name - this was/is a taxpayer funded facility and while they kept repairing things, and the boy scouts kept cleaning the berms of trash - it just amazed me how callous and idiotic some folks are - their actions just give Brady et al the ammo they need

 

[Flame Red]

At our outdoor range we have had a rash of shot up target stands and failure of people to police up their targets.

No discussion of camera to help resolve this because the neighbor that moved in next door some years back and built a mansion never knew there was a range next door to him (what a moron) and sued the range. He had pictures of license plates so we know that all on candid camera 7x24!

 

[cavman]

We too are considering the use of camera's to prevent trespassing, vandalism and abuse, but have not obtained the funds yet to do it.

Until the funds arrive, put up a large sign that says "24 Surveillance".

 

[geekWithA.45]

Until the funds arrive, put up a large sign that says "24 Surveillance".

Our club did that for *years* before the actual cams arrived.

Because there was a problem with people shooting the target backer frames, they also went to a cheaper, simpler design that didn't use frames. Instead of sturdy frames to attach the 4'x8' plywood to, they sunk some pipes to hold some 2x4s upright in as posts, and they nail the plywood to that. Every couple of months, they just give the remnants the heave ho, and stake up a new one.

 

[Rembrandt]

....What problem is really trying to be solved here?

I notice that the OP describes only one objectively objectionable outcome as "bad range behavior", that of shooting up target frames.

The rest is all subjective, and frankly, a matter of opinion. There's really nothing wrong per se with rapid fire, target appliances, or Evil Black Guns.

Considering that the purpose of a gun club is to serve it's members, and that the trend of a good portion of some members is towards a more dynamic style of shooting, I would say that its probably time for the club to re-examine its underlying premises, and see if there isn't a faction problem developing.

We currently have rules regarding rapid fire, shooting at non-compliant targets, etc. Nothing wrong with black guns, I own quite a few myself. The point is that those firearms are a larger percentage of the market today and their usage on the range has increase proportionately. Shooters are hosing 20-30 round magazines just to hear it cycle. In the process they are cutting up steel target frames and leaving the damages for others to clean up and pay for. We are located close to residential neighbors and they are noticing the change too. I've already been to two zoning commission meetings where irate residents are complaining. We don't need the problems the wanna be Rambos are bringing to the club. It's not designed or set up for that format and style of shooting.

We also don't have the resources to post full time range officers on duty.....that's why cameras have some appeal.

 

[44Dave]

No one is willing to volunteer shifts as RO?

 

[waterhouse]

Our range went to cameras within the past few years. There was some reported vandalism and the cameras went in. I don't know if it has helped or not, but I don't think they hurt anything.