Out of state gunshow rifle purchase

[hovercat]

I have never tried to do a gunshow out of state purchase before. But I may this weekend in WA.
I know, longguns only.
I believe I would need to do a background check as the buyer. I can live with that for the right firearm. But what is the procedure if the perfect rifle is being sold by a private seller with no FFL?
Can a dealer with a FFL do the background check for a fee, and let me legally purchase from an individual?

 

[col_temp]

You can purchase without the check though most gun shows require some sort of background check for membership (The WAC does).

What needs to happen is that you can NOT take possession of the weapon. The seller must ship it to an FFL in your state of residence. If its a private sale then they need to take it to an FFL in WA and have them ship it to your FFL. Either way there are extra fees on both ends to do this!

Anything that crosses state lines AND if you are not a resident of the said state. Must be shipped to an FFL in your state of residence. The FFL then has to do the federal forms etc... before you take possession.

I know its a pain but that is the ONLY legal way to make the pruchase you are talking about. I assume you are likely from Oregon and are coming up to the Puyallup WAC show right?

Good lukc with your purchase or possible purchase. hope this helps, Paris

 

[dogtown tom]

hovercat But what is the procedure if the perfect rifle is being sold by a private seller with no FFL?

When outside your state of residence, you may only acquire rifles or shotguns from a licensee.

Can a dealer with a FFL do the background check for a fee, and let me legally purchase from an individual?

Yes.

 

[dogtown tom]

col_temp You can purchase without the check though most gun shows require some sort of background check for membership (The WAC does).

Nope.
Every firearm acquired from a licensed dealer requires a 4473/NICS.

Anything that crosses state lines AND if you are not a resident of the said state. Must be shipped to an FFL in your state of residence.

Not true.

What needs to happen is that you can NOT take possession of the weapon. The seller must ship it to an FFL in your state of residence. If its a private sale then they need to take it to an FFL in WA and have them ship it to your FFL. Either way there are extra fees on both ends to do this!

Federal law permits the OP to buy rifles and shotguns from a licensee in any state. (without the need for it to be shipped back to his state of residence).

 

[hovercat]

I am still unclear, and really do not want to mess this up.
I have bought a rifle from a gunshop out of state and walked out with it. I know that that is OK with a background check.

But if Joe the private seller has the rifle of my dreams for $220, can Stan the FFL at the table next to his do the forms and background check for a fee and I walk out with the rifle after paying Joe?

If not, I will do my usual run for reloading stuff. And hopefully a quart of local homegrown honey.

 

[dogtown tom]

Reread post #3


You make an agreement to purchase from a nonlicensed resident of another state.
Seller takes gun to a licensed dealer who records it in his bound book.
You complete a 4473 and pass NICS.
Dealer hands you the gun.

 

[deadin]

.

But I may this weekend in WA.

If you are planning to make a rifle purchase at the WAC show in Puyallup be aware that you must be a member of the Washington Arms Collectors to buy any firearm at the show. Any dealer or private person caught selling to a non-member will be kicked out.

 

[hovercat]

Thank you, Dogtown. That made it very clear.
Deadin, Yes Puyallup. I was aware of non- members not being able to sell, but purchase also? That is just too much. Thanks for the heads-up.

 

[deadin]

Non-members can't even bring a gun into the show let alone trying to sell it.
Also, parking lot deals will cause a member to lose his membership if caught.
(even between members.)

 

[Jim K]

I don't know the WAC rules, but the statement that "If its a private sale then they need to take it to an FFL in WA and have them ship it to your FFL. Either way there are extra fees on both ends to do this!" is not correct.

Anyone can ship a firearm across state lines TO an FFL dealer or, if the gun is a C&R, TO an FFL Collector (03 License). In general, a person, dealer or not, selling at a gun show should be familiar with the law regarding shipping guns or refuse to sell to anyone not a resident of his state.

Note that for private sales, the key is the state of residence of the seller and buyer, not the location of the transaction. If the seller is from your state, a sale to you is the same as if it took place in your state, as long as the sale does not otherwise violate federal law or the laws of either state.

Jim

 

[dogtown tom]

deadin ....If you are planning to make a rifle purchase at the WAC show in Puyallup be aware that you must be a member of the Washington Arms Collectors to buy any firearm at the show. Any dealer or private person caught selling to a non-member will be kicked out.

What kind of gun show is "members only"?
Is this some kind of restriction based on state law? The venue or promoter?

 

[NavyLCDR]

Note that for private sales, the key is the state of residence of the seller and buyer, not the location of the transaction. If the seller is from your state, a sale to you is the same as if it took place in your state, as long as the sale does not otherwise violate federal law or the laws of either state.

Jim

Wrong. The location of the transaction is equally as important as the state of residence of the seller and buyer. If an Oregon resident purchases a firearm from another Oregon resident in any state other than Oregon, the buyer violates 18 USC 922 (a)(3) when he brings his firearm back to Oregon, unless it was a rifle transferred to the buyer by an out-of-state FFL:

18 U.S. Code § 922 - Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful—
(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State

 

[NavyLCDR]

You can purchase without the check

Sure, he can purchase it without the background check, but since this is a transaction outside his state of residence, he cannot take possession of it without a background check.

What needs to happen is that you can NOT take possession of the weapon. The seller must ship it to an FFL in your state of residence.

Only if the firearm is not a rifle or shotgun. If the firearm is a rifle or shotgun, then it can be transferred to the buyer by an FFL in almost any state, and certainly in Washington state.

If its a private sale then they need to take it to an FFL in WA and have them ship it to your FFL.

No. If the firearm is a rifle or shotgun, the FFL in WA can transfer the firearm to the buyer right there. If the firearm is other than a rifle or shotgun it is not necessary to involve a WA FFL at all. The seller can ship the firearm directly to an FFL in the buyer's state of residence. Although it would probably be cheaper for a Washington FFL to mail it using US Postal Service.

Anything that crosses state lines AND if you are not a resident of the said state. Must be shipped to an FFL in your state of residence.

Again, only true if the firearm is other than a rifle or shotgun.

And the other posters were correct - the Washington Arms Collectors require membership in order to buy or sell firearms at the shows.

 

[deadin]

What kind of gun show is "members only"?

WAC (Washington Arms Collectors)

Is this some kind of restriction based on state law? The venue or promoter?

The WAC is a membership organization that puts on 2 monthly gunshows (different locations) It was formed at least 40-50 some years ago. (I've been a member since 1973) One thing they do is vet all members at every renewal. (There is NO "gunshow loophole" here.) The shows are open to the public for all purchases except firearms. I personally like it as it tends to keep the riff-raff and gang-bangers out. (Our 3 day shows run usually 800 to a 1000 tables)

 

[NavyLCDR]

WAC (Washington Arms Collectors)

The WAC is a membership organization that puts on 2 monthly gunshows (different locations) It was formed at least 40-50 some years ago. (I've been a member since 1973) One thing they do is vet all members at every renewal. (There is NO "gunshow loophole" here.) The shows are open to the public for all purchases except firearms. I personally like it as it tends to keep the riff-raff and gang-bangers out. (Our 3 day shows run usually 800 to a 1000 tables)

The WAC is basically an organization that has enacted their own Universal Background Check....

The WAC website used to say on the front page that they fully supported the 2nd Amendment. Then further inside their website the rules of the road were that only members (which required a background check to become a member) would be allowed to buy or sell firearms. I notice that their statement that they fully support the 2nd Amendment has been removed, at least from the front page of their website, and I can't find it elsewhere either.

I'll just leave it at that.

 

[deadin]

I was trying to stay positive about the WAC, but I don't think they are going to last much longer. They have gotten too big and are getting money hungry. In recent years it seems that they have been courting the dealers (FFL types). As long as you are willing to reserve tables it seems that they don't care what you are selling. It is starting to remind me of a flea market.
The latest is that they have been noticed by the State Tax Department and are now requiring anyone wanting a table more than twice a year to get a business license and collect sales tax on all sales. This has discouraged a lot of hobbyists and has pretty much left the field to the dealers and the wanna-be dealers. It has insured that I will never get another table as I have C&R License which clearly forbids me being "in business". Somehow I can't correlate having a business license and a FFL03 at the same time.

 

[col_temp]

Thanks for the clarifications guys.
I realize I should have been a bit more precise. You adds make it clearer.

 

[ngnrd]

... There is NO "gunshow loophole" here....

I would assert that there is no "gunshow loophole" anywhere, except in the venomous rants of the anti-gun establishment.

 

[bikemutt]

Washington Arms Collectors spells out in great detail their "Rules of the Road", if a person doesn't like the rules they are free to not join or attend the gun shows. I don't see anything burdensome concerning said rules, but to each his own.

As far as WAC coddling the "FFL-types", umh, those "types" have a license to sell guns as way of making a living, what's wrong with that? It's a gun show after all.

If a gun flea market seems to be lacking in the organization's charter, why not start a new organization?

I'm a WAC member in good standing for full disclosure.

 

[Art Eatman]

Summary:

1. At a WAC show, only WAC members can buy or sell firearms.

2. Other than WAC shows, any FFL at a show can do the background check and 4473 for the buyer of a rifle or shotgun who is not a resident of the state in which the show is being held. The firearm may then be legally taken home.

Any error, here, on my part?

 

[NavyLCDR]

Washington Arms Collectors spells out in great detail their "Rules of the Road", if a person doesn't like the rules they are free to not join or attend the gun shows. I don't see anything burdensome concerning said rules, but to each his own.

I have no complaints about the Washington Arms Collectors now that they have stopped claiming to fully support the 2nd Amendment. Several of their policies do not support the 2nd Amendment.

 

[marv]

You are allowed to cross ONE state line to legally buy a long gun from a dealer. Handguns must be shipped to an FFL in the buyer's state.

 

[TheVision]

You are allowed to cross ONE state line to legally buy a long gun from a dealer.

That hasn't been true, federally, since the GCA's contiguous state provision was removed in 1986. The ATF doesn't read state law that references contiguous state sales as prohibiting sales to noncontiguous states, unless state law expressly forbids out of state purchases.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/industry/tip-of-the-month-2010.html

 

[Art Eatman]

I guess my summary was factual, and we're wandering off-topic now...