Out of state rifle purchase!.

[Jurist]

As a resident of the state of New Jersey,with a FID card.Can I legally purchase a rifle in an other state whil visiting that said state?.Im thinking yes,since there is not a mandatory regestration of long guns in my state.In order to posess a long gun in N.J. I think all I need would be a NJFID card and a sales slip for a particular rifle.I could also be wrong in my thoughts,can anyone steer me in the right direction to resolve my thinking?.

 

[NavyLCDR]

You can purchase a rifle in another state from a FFL dealer (gun store) only. If you purchase a rifle in another state from a private party, the transfer must happen through an FFL for the transfer.

The rifle must be legal to possess in your home state, and the laws of both your home state and the state of the FFL doing the transfer must be met.

18 USC 922(b)(3):

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee’s place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States

 

[bushmaster1313]

M1 carbine could get you in heap big trouble in NJ

 

[BSA1]

I believe that is only partly correct.

Last I knew you can legally purchase a long gun is a state whose borders adjoins yours and transport it back across state lines.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Last I knew you can legally purchase a long gun is a state whose borders adjoins yours and transport it back across state lines.

Nope, federal law was amended a few years ago to remove the contiguous State limitation, but the transfer must be through an FFL.

Here is pretty much the whole story on interstate transfers (not including the rules for those with Curio and Relic licenses or the subject of dual residency):

[1] Under federal law, any transfer (with a few, narrow exceptions, e. g., by bequest under a will) from a resident of one State to a resident of another must be through an FFL. The transfer must comply with all the requirements of the State in which the transfer is being done as well as all federal formalities (e. g., completion of a 4473, etc.).

[2] In the case of handguns, it must be an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. You may obtain a handgun in a State other than your State of residence, BUT it must be shipped by the transferor to an FFL in your State of residence to transfer the handgun to you.

[3] In the case of long guns, it may be any FFL as long as (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer complies with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complies with the law of the transferee's State of residence.

[4] In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies.

[5] There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.

[6] The relevant federal laws may be found at: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922(b)(3).

Here's what the statutes say:

18 U.S.C. 922. Unlawful acts

(a) It shall be unlawful—
...

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph

(A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

(B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;​

...

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to

(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and

(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
​

....

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver --
...

(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph

(A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and

(B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes​

;...

 

[Scimmia]

I believe that is only partly correct.

Last I knew you can legally purchase a long gun is a state whose borders adjoins yours and transport it back across state lines.

There are no such laws about 'bordering' states. See this post for details:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8186229&postcount=15

 

[NavyLCDR]

Nope, federal law was amended a few years ago to remove the contiguous State limitation

26 years ago, to be exact (1986).

 

[Frank Ettin]

26 years ago, to be exact (1986).

When you get to be my age, that's a few years.

 

[toivo]

Maybe somebody can explain this one to me, because I'm still puzzled by it.

Ten or so years ago I bought a Winchester 9422 from an online auction. The seller was a gun shop located about an hour's drive from my home, so I asked to pick it up in person instead of having it shipped. It was fine with them, so off I went.

The kicker is that I live in New York and the shop was in Massachusetts. Everything went just like a normal sale: I filled out the 4473, they called it in and got the go-ahead, I got the receipt (IIRC, I had sent them a money order), and then the guy says "Follow me." He takes the boxed rifle, jumps in his truck, and drives back across the border, about 15 minutes away. I follow him until he pulls over, then he gets out, hands me the rifle, and says "Have a nice day."

I have no idea why they did that. I didn't want to ask, because I figured they know their business better than I do. Was it to avoid having to charge me sales tax on what was technically an out-of-state sale? (Online auction, after all.) Was it because a Massachusetts in-state firearms purchase requires a FOID? I'm still stumped by this.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Maybe somebody can explain this one to me, because I'm still puzzled by it.

then the guy says "Follow me." He takes the boxed rifle, jumps in his truck, and drives back across the border, about 15 minutes away. I follow him until he pulls over, then he gets out, hands me the rifle, and says "Have a nice day."

I have no idea why they did that. I didn't want to ask, because I figured they know their business better than I do. Was it to avoid having to charge me sales tax on what was technically an out-of-state sale? (Online auction, after all.) Was it because a Massachusetts in-state firearms purchase requires a FOID? I'm still stumped by this.

Must have been a sales tax thing. As the Federal Law requires....you purchasing the rifle from the Massachusetts dealer in Massachusetts requires the laws of Massachusetts to be followed as well as the laws of New York. Delivering the rifle across the border does not change that one bit, but it might have an affect on sales tax.

I lived on the Georgia side of the border between Georgia and Florida. If I purchased an item in Florida and took possession of it in Florida, the seller had to collect Florida sales tax. If I purchased an item in Florida, and had it delivered to Georgia, then I was responsible for paying Georgia use tax.

 

[dogtown tom]

If it smells fishy, it probably is.......

toivo Maybe somebody can explain this one to me, because I'm still puzzled by it.

Ten or so years ago I bought a Winchester 9422 from an online auction. The seller was a gun shop located about an hour's drive from my home, so I asked to pick it up in person instead of having it shipped. It was fine with them, so off I went.

The kicker is that I live in New York and the shop was in Massachusetts. Everything went just like a normal sale: I filled out the 4473, they called it in and got the go-ahead, I got the receipt (IIRC, I had sent them a money order), and then the guy says "Follow me." He takes the boxed rifle, jumps in his truck, and drives back across the border, about 15 minutes away. I follow him until he pulls over, then he gets out, hands me the rifle, and says "Have a nice day."

I have no idea why they did that. I didn't want to ask, because I figured they know their business better than I do. Was it to avoid having to charge me sales tax on what was technically an out-of-state sale? (Online auction, after all.) Was it because a Massachusetts in-state firearms purchase requires a FOID? I'm still stumped by this.

1. The Massachusetts dealer violated several Federal laws....
a. He cannot transfer a firearm to you in New York as his FFL only permits him to conduct business in Massachusetts. Whether he already called in the NICS is immaterial.
b. Federal law and ATF regulations clearly do not allow a licensed dealer to conduct business from any motor vehicle.
c. You may have been in violation of Federal law because you received a firearm from an unlicensed resident of another state.

2. Since you showed up "in person", the Mass dealer would have been required to collect Mass sales tax.

3. That dealer is one taco shy of a combination plate.

 

[toivo]

1. The Massachusetts dealer violated several Federal laws....
a. He cannot transfer a firearm to you in New York as his FFL only permits him to conduct business in Massachusetts. Whether he already called in the NICS is immaterial.

Hmm... considering all the paperwork was done, couldn't it be argued that he was just "delivering" it, same as UPS or FedEx?

b. Federal law and ATF regulations clearly do not allow a licensed dealer to conduct business from any motor vehicle.

Interesting -- I didn't know that.

c. You may have been in violation of Federal law because you received a firearm from an unlicensed resident of another state.

He was an FFL -- although I see your point that he was outside the state where he was licensed to do business.

2. Since you showed up "in person", the Mass dealer would have been required to collect Mass sales tax.

Even though the transaction was completed online?

3. That dealer is one taco shy of a combination plate.

It's starting to sound that way.

 

[dogtown tom]

toivo Hmm... considering all the paperwork was done, couldn't it be argued that he was just "delivering" it, same as UPS or FedEx?

FedEx and UPS are common carriers. The Massachusetts dealer is not. ATF regs/federal law allow a licensee to conduct business (ie transfer of a firearm) at two locations ONLY: the licensed premises or a gun show/special event. "Delivery" of a firearm by a licensee............absolutely, positively not allowed under Federal law.

He was an FFL -- although I see your point that he was outside the state where he was licensed to do business.

While he may hold an FFL, his license does not allow him to sell, dispose or transfer firearms outside the state where he is licensed....therefore he is an unlicensed non resident. His FFL DOES allow him to acquire firearms outside his state or to dispose of C&R firearms to an 03FFL.

Even though the transaction was completed online?

It wasn't.....you said you went to his shop and completed the 4473/NICS there.

 

[BSA1]

Nope, federal law was amended a few years ago to remove the contiguous State limitation, but the transfer must be through an FFL.

OUCH!!!

So if i am hunting in Colorado and my rifle decides to go down the mountain without me I am screwed about buying a replacement in Colorado to finish my hunting trip.

Oh that law has to have been changed more recently than 1986 as I have brought several guns in neighboring Oklahoma.

 

[Birch Knoll]

I don't think you understand; the change in the law back in 1986 removed the limitation on buying long guns in contiguous states. With the limitation gone, you may purchase long guns in many more states than you could before.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Nope, federal law was amended a few years ago to remove the contiguous State limitation, but the transfer must be through an FFL.

OUCH!!!

So if i am hunting in Colorado and my rifle decides to go down the mountain without me I am screwed about buying a replacement in Colorado to finish my hunting trip.

Oh that law has to have been changed more recently than 1986 as I have brought several guns in neighboring Oklahoma.

Let's say you are from Washington and you are hunting in Oklahoma and you lose your rifle. Prior to the 1986 amendment to the Federal Gun Control Act you would have been screwed because Federal law would only allow you to buy a rifle out of state if that state was contiguous to your state of residence.

After the 1986 amendment it is now perfectly legal for you to buy the gun in Oklahoma because out of state rifle sales by FFLs are still legal, only the contiguous state restriction went away.