Over driven lead?

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Obturation

Obturation

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Hey all,
Hope everyone's doing well.
I've had a bit of an on going saga with my recently purchased ruger 77/357, made a few posts about it and started a thread a month or so ago about replacing a (possibly) damaged optic on this carbine (rifle,whatever).
The first time I took it out it shot well with my 180 grain MBC hi-tek coated bullets and mediocre with my preferred 158 swc over 14.0 grains of 2400. I planned to work on the 158 grain load some to find a sweet spot for rifle & revolver.
About a month ago I took 100 eds of my regular 158 swc (over 2400) to the range. Groups were comical, very large- about 10" @ 50 yards, unacceptable. Way worse than the previous loads tested and the only thing I could figure was that the inexpensive bushnell 3-9 scope got bumped or dinged or killed by recoil. I wasn't sure. So before I got too crazy I assembled some jacketed rounds, 14.0 and 14.5 grains of 2400 & 16.4 grains of h110 under a 158 grain xtp . took those to the range this morning and turns out the scope is fine. Darn it, happy & disappointed at the same time.

Only thing I can figure is that the cast bullets are being over driven, couldn't be anything else (that I can figure). The best performance was from the 14.5 grains of 2400 (with the 158 xtp bullet), it made a 2" group at 100 yards- that's with me shooting, pretty darn good- I'm not a long range shooter, 100 yards is about it for me & my interests . I've heard that's about all I can hope for from this rifle anyway and that's just fine for my use.

My question is:
I'm sure I could download the swc load until it shoots in the rifle and revolver but that leaves the revolver under powered. Would a gas check solve this issue? - I suspect not because there was no leading in the barrel, clean as a whistle. Same thought I had about pc/hi-tek coated bullets (I do have some coated 158 grain swc on order , but haven't arrived to test this) but I'm not counting on this to resolve the issue. Possibly the answer is to find an appropriate powder, I'm not worried about trying to pull every bit of velocity from the rifle but I want at least 1200 fps from a 6" barreled revolver with the same load.

I've shot thousands of cast bullets over the years but have never had a pistol caliber rifle before where this has been an issue.
I like jacketed bullets but prefer cast, especially with revolver rounds.


I have a lot of components and a reasonable selection of powders, any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks
 
Cannibul said:
There's a very real possibility that your rifle just doesn't like that bullet.

Try a different style of SWC to check.

Also there's a thought rattling around in my head that the SWC bullet profile isn't the most accurate profile in carbine length barrels.
Click to expand...
The MBC swc I ordered is grooveless (except for the crimp groove) & coated so it may be enough different to make a difference. Not looking for pin point accuracy but soup can @ 50 yards is about all i need, the way it was shooting with the swc I've got is minute of sewer cap at 30 yards from that gun but very accurate from my revolver.
 
Try timing some of that h110 behind the 158swc.
I liked MBC 158 swc over h110. They don't lead even though they are stout loads.
I've since moved to the coated180 WFN over H110.
 
Bfh_auto said:
Try timing some of that h110 behind the 158swc.
I liked MBC 158 swc over h110. They don't lead even though they are stout loads.
I've since moved to the coated180 WFN over H110.
Click to expand...
I've got mbc coated 180 bullets and lots of h110, I'll load some up. As I mentioned, I did shoot some of those 180s over 2400 and it did ok but nothing spectacular. My issue with the swc was accuracy, no leading to speak of. It took me by surprise because there were so many unknowns, new rifle, cheap optic and handloads. The 158 xtp over h110 weren't my most accurate today, but did ok. The swc I have been using is the dreaded laser cast (I think it's claimed to be 22+ bhn) but I got a couple thousand for cheap and they shoot very well from my revolver, I figured they'd work decently at higher velocity but i was wrong. Not sure what the coating will accomplish as I'm not getting any lead deposits , but I'm going to try several different options now that I know that the gun can shoot well provided the bullet matches the powder charge and the scope is zeroed at 50 yards (it's capable of holding zero I should say) . I think this is supposed to be the fun part.
 
Obturation said:
I've got mbc coated 180 bullets and lots of h110, I'll load some up. As I mentioned, I did shoot some of those 180s over 2400 and it did ok but nothing spectacular. My issue with the swc was accuracy, no leading to speak of. It took me by surprise because there were so many unknowns, new rifle, cheap optic and handloads. The 158 xtp over h110 weren't my most accurate today, but did ok. The swc I have been using is the dreaded laser cast (I think it's claimed to be 22+ bhn) but I got a couple thousand for cheap and they shoot very well from my revolver, I figured they'd work decently at higher velocity but i was wrong. Not sure what the coating will accomplish as I'm not getting any lead deposits , but I'm going to try several different options now that I know that the gun can shoot well provided the bullet matches the powder charge and the scope is zeroed at 50 yards (it's capable of holding zero I should say) . I think this is supposed to be the fun part.
Click to expand...
I have no experience using laser cast. I started with MBC and was pleased. So I haven't wandered.
13gr of H110 is the start of good accuracy with 180s in my guns.
I worked up over this. But accuracy didn't get any better.
I would like to try one of those rifles. They seem like they would make a great brush gun.
 
Bfh_auto said:
I would like to try one of those rifles. They seem like they would make a great brush gun.
Click to expand...
It's a nice rugged light camp rifle type gun. I got it for just that, camping and hiking around , it should be pretty weather resistant and pairs with a 6" gp100 that I use as a range beater and general use outdoors gun. The magazine leaves something to be desired, tough to release and not easy to insert but it's not a big deal for what I'm using it for.
 
tlf65 said:
maybe you should slug the rifle barrel to see what the groove size is cast bullets should be 1 or 2 thousands over groove size.
Click to expand...

That was also my first thought. In some cases there can be a difference between rifle and pistol bores, even in new-manufacture arms. It doesn't sound like it in your case... you are not experiencing leading, but it's possible bumping up .001" might help things out. I have the same thing with my new to me Savage 99 in .30-30... I have to go to a .311" bullet instead of the .309" bullets everything else likes. I would also try a different powder besides 2400.

I've shot a LOT of cast bullets in all manner of rifles... none coated. Every once in a while, you will find a powder that just doesn't work well, or a bullet that just doesn't work well... in my case 2400 was that powder that doesn't work well. I can't seem to get it to shoot well no matter what (this, primarily in the .41MAG.) If I find a load one of the pistols likes... the rifle hates, or vice versa. My go-to Magnum powder, besides H110 for max velocity (and accuracy, as it turns out...) is IMR4227. It does not give the velocity 2400 does, but the accuracy is there in both rifle and pistol. As far as bullets... my last round of 230grn .45ACP bullets, I used the Speer plated RN bullet... what should be a very good bullet, did not perform well in my pistols (2 Kimbers.) And this was across 5 different powders. So, I don't use the Speer TMJ bullet anymore.

I've also come to the conclusion that trying to find that magic combo of load that works well (not just good enough) in both a rifle and pistol barrel is a exercise in frustration. The exception to that is Unique... it really does work well in both, but I can't extract the velocity I expect from a rifle barrel. See... there is always a compromise. Same with IMR4227 in a pistol barrel... it works well enough, but is terribly inefficient and dirty in a 4" barrel. So, I have decided to leave the magical land of One Round for All and come back to Realville... loading one good load for my pistols, and one good load for my rifle. I've had to do the same thing in .308, between my M1a and Savage bolt gun... in fact, I have completely left the reservation and dropped the 'Unique' of rifle powders (IMR4895) from the roster, and use 2 different powders, now.
 
Charlie98 said:
That was also my first thought. In some cases there can be a difference between rifle and pistol bores, even in new-manufacture arms. It doesn't sound like it in your case... you are not experiencing leading, but it's possible bumping up .001" might help things out. I have the same thing with my new to me Savage 99 in .30-30... I have to go to a .311" bullet instead of the .309" bullets everything else likes. I would also try a different powder besides 2400.

I've shot a LOT of cast bullets in all manner of rifles... none coated. Every once in a while, you will find a powder that just doesn't work well, or a bullet that just doesn't work well... in my case 2400 was that powder that doesn't work well. I can't seem to get it to shoot well no matter what (this, primarily in the .41MAG.) If I find a load one of the pistols likes... the rifle hates, or vice versa. My go-to Magnum powder, besides H110 for max velocity (and accuracy, as it turns out...) is IMR4227. It does not give the velocity 2400 does, but the accuracy is there in both rifle and pistol. As far as bullets... my last round of 230grn .45ACP bullets, I used the Speer plated RN bullet... what should be a very good bullet, did not perform well in my pistols (2 Kimbers.) And this was across 5 different powders. So, I don't use the Speer TMJ bullet anymore.

I've also come to the conclusion that trying to find that magic combo of load that works well (not just good enough) in both a rifle and pistol barrel is a exercise in frustration. The exception to that is Unique... it really does work well in both, but I can't extract the velocity I expect from a rifle barrel. See... there is always a compromise. Same with IMR4227 in a pistol barrel... it works well enough, but is terribly inefficient and dirty in a 4" barrel. So, I have decided to leave the magical land of One Round for All and come back to Realville... loading one good load for my pistols, and one good load for my rifle. I've had to do the same thing in .308, between my M1a and Savage bolt gun... in fact, I have completely left the reservation and dropped the 'Unique' of rifle powders (IMR4895) from the roster, and use 2 different powders, now.
Click to expand...

Thanks, good to hear your experience walking down this path. I've really liked 2400 for 357 (in revolvers), it's safer to reduce charges , gives good performance at the top end and has a wider spread between min and max charge weights VS h110. But I have no problem dropping 2400 if I can solve this with a powder primer combo, that would be awesome.

I considered slugginh the bore but I don't cast and don't have any soft lead around , so it turns into a bit of a project. I do have a chunk of cerrosafe (I've been told it shrinks when it cools),from a forcing cone/bore casting I had a gunsmith do a while back I maybe could use,didn't think sizing could be the issue because there hasn't been leading but I probably should check it anyway.

If I end up with 2 separate loads I'm ok with it but I'd like to try to figure it out. Like I mentioned, I'm not worried about getting top velocity from the rifle, I'd be happy if revolver & rifle even had the same velocity of they both shot well. I know jacketed shoot well in the rifle and I can always use them but I prefer cast for all the regular reasons. I am going to revisit the 180 grain coated bullet but I'll try h110.
Powders I have on hand are:
15988822113743473997643840402955.jpg
I have some other rifle powders but I doubt any would be appropriate .

Types of bullets on hand:
15988823884264856739243425880127.jpg
So I have some stuff here and some other bullets on order from MBC. Load suggestions are welcome.
Thanks
 
Well... and it's been a while since I reloaded .357... but try reducing the 2400 load, first. It might be you are just trying to push them too fast. Conversely, you could try a different bullet. I AM a big fan of the 180grn cast FN bullet in the .357, they were some of the most accurate loads I ever worked up in the .357... but your rifle's twist rate may come to play here, so be aware of that.

There is also Unique there... Unique would be a good control powder. If you can't get a decent load with that, there is something wrong... ;) The dark horse in this is W296/H110. I had some cast loads worked up with H110 that I'd forgotten about, so I took them along to run them over the chrono... turns out they were some of the most accurate loads out of both the rifle and the pistols, and certainly the fastest. It was with, however, a Cast Performance gas check bullet (250grn) which has shown to be an excellent bullet no matter... but I was actually shocked at the accuracy with those.

In hindsight, if you got good accuracy with those jacketed bullets, very likely your bore should be OK with .358" bullets... I would be surprised otherwise. Try reducing with 2400, and/or work up with another powder. I would look for accuracy in the rifle, first, then see if the pistol likes it.
 
I meant to talk about rifling twist. I had a Marlin 1894 in .45 Colt... just a fantastic rifle. Except. It had lazy 1:38" twist.

I started with some 255grn and 270grn cast bullets over Unique... traditional .45 Colt loads... they printed a shotgun pattern. I couldn't figure it out. Finally, after talking to a friend, he said the slow twist would not stabilize the heavy, slow-moving bullets. If I would have ramped up the load with IMR4227 or 2400, things would have turned out different, or used a ligher (200grn, etc) bullet at higher velocity.
 
suggest you change your "favorite" bullet to 180 grain for that rifle. my blackhawk revolvers love that weight bullet. and, as you seem to have the same experience, the 158 grain loads i have run through these guns have been nothing but problems (leading, inaccurate).

i use blue dot powder for my 180-187 grain loads and get 1200 fps out of the 4.625" barreled blackhawks.

180 grain xtp bullets may be another "accuracy" option for that rifle.

luck,

murf
 
"If I end up with 2 separate loads I'm ok with it but I'd like to try to figure it out. Like I mentioned, I'm not worried about getting top velocity from the rifle, I'd be happy if revolver & rifle even had the same velocity of they both shot well. I know jacketed shoot well in the rifle and I can always use them but I prefer cast for all the regular reasons."

Focus on getting a round that performs well in you revolver and accept what you get from the carbine at 50 yards! After all this is a "pistol caliber"!

That being said, my PCC-9 mm is capable of ringing 12" steel at 100 yards and 2" groups at 50 yards (using 135 grain .357 RNFP bullets, 10BHN, and soft lube) which is acceptable for a pistol caliber carbine for self defense.

For self defense it is loaded with Ranger 147 grain JHP's that shoot to the same POA!

If you are looking for "precision" pistol accuracy you're starting from a difficult spot!

Smiles,
 
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JJFitch said:
Focus on getting a round that performs well in you revolver and accept what you get from the carbine at 50 yards! After all this is a "pistol caliber"!
Click to expand...
My revolver load has been the same for a few years 158 swc over 14 gn 2400, no problem there, they're very accurate and consistent . they made a 10" group at 50 yards in the rifle and that's why I'm back at the drawing board. I have about 10 different loads I'm planning to test and I think I should get a cast load that works in the rifle and then hope it shoots well in a revolver.
Thanks!
 
Obturation said:
I think I should get a cast load that works in the rifle and then hope it shoots well in a revolver.
Thanks!
Click to expand...
That is the easiest way to do it.
It not. Just run your 158 load in the revolver and 180s in the carbine.
They're definitely easy to tell apart even in an ammo belt.
 
So I put together 8 different test loads today. Both using coated bullets, no gas checks and both with magnum type powders. 180 grain MBC "pugnose" hi-tek coated , over 11.5 & 12 grains of 2400 and 13.5 & 14 grains of h110. 158 grain rnfp coated over 14.5 & 15 grains h110 , 12.5 & 13.5 grains 2400. 10 of each. 20200912_192348.jpg

20200912_192428.jpg

Hoping one of these loads proves accurate. Still waiting (been 2 months) for my MBC order with the 158 coated swc . it'll be next weekend before I will have a chance to test. Anyone have a guess which load will shoot best? My bet is on the 180 grain over 14 grains h110. But just a guess, if none of these do what I want I'll be back to the drawing board to find an accurate cast load that will still have good velocity from a revolver.
 
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Obturation said:
So I put together 8 different test loads today. Both using coated bullets, no gas checks and both with magnum type powders. 180 grain MBC "pugnose" hi-tek coated , over 11.5 & 12 grains of h110 and 13 & 14 grains of 2400. 158 grain rnfp coated over 14.5 & 15 grains h110 , 12.5 & 13.5 grains 2400. 10 of each.View attachment 942061

View attachment 942062

Hoping one of these loads proves accurate. Still waiting (been 2 months) for my MBC order with the 158 coated swc . it'll be next weekend before I will have a chance to test. Anyone have a guess which load will shoot best? My bet is on the 180 grain over 14 grains h110. But just a guess, if none of these do what I want I'll be back to the drawing board to find an accurate cast load that will still have good velocity from a revolver.
Click to expand...
Did you mix up the 2400 and h110 charges when you were typing?
I would bet all the h110 loads will shoot well. As long as you used mag primer.
 
Are you shooting bevel based bullets? Their not the best for longer ranges, and I'm wondering if the 1-16 twist of you M77 isn't to fast for the velocity your getting from the rifle vs the pistol with the 158gr loads.
I 2nd the 180gr bullets due to the extra length for the 1/16 twist at higher velocity
.
If you can find some flat based bullets, try them. Look at Matt's bullets for the longer range stuff and they also shoot accurately from revolvers. I shoot his 178gr Keith SWCs and they work well at full throttle.
https://www.mattsbullets.com/index....ducts_id=234&zenid=0l512j18apfiuae7uec6froui5
These are flat base bullets and the Keith style has been proven over the years as a decent longer range bullet.

Personally for me I would be shooting gas checked bullets in both revolver and rifle to help with any base deformation problems that may be happening. Especially in the rifle.

Matt's bullets sells these also which may be what your looking for.
https://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=194

Good luck.
 
Bfh_auto said:
Did you mix up the 2400 and h110 charges when you were typing?
Click to expand...
I did, good eye! I'll fix it. I did use a mag primer (getting low :uhoh:) for the h110 loads.

tightgroup tiger said:
Personally for me I would be shooting gas checked bullets in both revolver and rifle to help with any base deformation problems that may be happening. Especially in the rifle.
Click to expand...
That'll be my next step if I need to, I can't lay hands on 35 cal gas checks right now, hoping the coating will crutch it . I know it's not ideal but is it possible to gas check a bullet that doesn't have the reduced diameter at the base? I do have a lee push through sizing die that I believe will seat a gas check, although I've never done it.

tightgroup tiger said:
Are you shooting bevel based bullets?
Click to expand...
20200913_093147.jpg
The 158 looks like it may be slightly beveled , the 180 looks flat to me.

tightgroup tiger said:
I'm wondering if the 1-16 twist of you M77 isn't to fast for the velocity your getting from the rifle vs the pistol with the 158gr loads.
Click to expand...

Kind of my thought too, I think the factor that's thrown me off is that I would expect leading from the 158 laser cast that shot so poorly but there was zero and it may be due to the 22+ bhn of those bullets. I hadn't really thought about the possibility that the faster twist rate wouldn't stabilize a 158 - something to test once I've got a good shooting cast load, I would imagine if that's the case 125 grain bullets would be terrible in this gun.

Those gas checked Matt's bullets look good, fair price too. I may just have to get some of those too.

Really appreciate all the input and I'll keep chugging along on my testing.
 
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