+P 9mm in Baby Eagle ok?

[Sir Galahad]

Not for like all the time shooting, but for home defense duty and a few rounds through it to see how it runs through the pistol and where it hits? I called Magnum Research and they said they recommend against +P for regular shooting. But the manual makes no mention of avoiding +P ammo. Anyone out there shot +P through your Baby Eagle? Had any problems?

 

[Handy]

The BE was originally the Jericho 941, chambered for 9mm and .41 AE with just a barrel change. .41 AE is like .40, but a little hotter. See where I'm going with this? 9mm +P is not going to work the gun as hard as .41 AE, so I wouldn't worry.

There is no reason to practice with +P ammo though, in any gun.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

There is no reason to practice with +P ammo though, in any gun.

well, there is if it's your carry ammo.

 

[Handy]

To a certain extent yes, but I meant there is no reason for high volume +P shooting. It just batters your gun, which is foolish if it is your carry piece.

The recoil differences between standard and +P are noticeable, but aren't going to significantly change the fundamentals of aim, trigger control or recoil recovery - they just exaggerate them some. POA should also not be affected with 9mm, it shoots flat in all loadings.

No one should be so sensitive that they can only practice with one load.

 

[Sir Galahad]

Thanks for the info, Handy! I appreciate it!

 

[dude]

Try some 147g subsonic Winchester Ranger through your BE.............it shoots like frigin butter through my old sub-compact BE!!

I use them for SD out of my P7

 

[10-Ring]

Based only on the limited access I've had w/ my buddy's Baby Eagle, I'd think that thing would be okay w/ limited +P ammo use. At the very worse, maybe a heavier recoil spring to help absorb some of that punishment

 

[PCRCCW]

When I could afford it, I practiced more with +P +P+ than I did with FMH ammo.

Practice with what you carry.......as much as you can afford.
You need to know how it shoots...accuracy wise, recoils for quick shots...doubles, triples etc and if it is ABSOFREAKINLUTELY dependable in your gun. Whats not to practice with it?

You can shoot +p in your little eagle until the slide falls off of it...IMO. It was designed for the 41 AE and is a CZ clone, solid 4140 Steel and is a tough motha!

I wouldnt shoot it all of the time in any gun......but dont be afraid to shoot it as much as you feel you need to.

Shoot well

 

[Sir Galahad]

Thanks, guys!

 

[Nightcrawler]

If you want a source of cheap +P ammo check out Georgia Arms. They sell 9mm NATO-spec ammunition, a 124gr. FMJ bullet at 1200 feet per second, which is well within +P territory for 9x19mm, I believe.

 

[Handy]

You can shoot +p in your little eagle until the slide falls off of it...IMO.

This is the problem. If you do shoot that much +P ammo, because you want to insure you and your gun are dependable, you are putting extra wear on a gun that you depend on.

9mm handguns are so great because they are really overbuilt for the caliber. But once you get into heavier kicking ammo, now your gun will wear like a .40 or .45.

I guess I just don't see the necessity. It doesn't take more than a hundred rounds to convince anyone that a load is reliable. And there is usually no difference in trajectory or POI. So all you're getting out of the practice is more kick - which I haven't found to be a factor.

I'd much rather fire 100 standard rounds than 30 +P carry rounds. The more you can shoot, the better the practice - period.

 

[Nick96]

As mentioned previously, I don't think there would be any problem regarding frame, slide or barrels. A common failure in many "CZ Clones" is slide stop pin breakage though. Hotter ammo could somewhat increase wear on that. Of course you could just order one to carry in the gun for defensive purposes - and have the other to drop in target shooting whatever ammo you want.

Also check out the CZ Forum - CZ Clone Club. Lots of good information on pistols of this type.

 

[Sir Galahad]

Thanks!

 

[twolf]

9mm Self Defense Load

I use either Winchester Silver Tipped 147 gr HP's or Hydra Shok's in my 9mm's. Neither are +P or +P+ and both have numberous real world one shot kills. Here is the thing that most people forget when they buy a firearm, you have to actually shoot someone to stop them. Unless your robber is an 85 year old man with a heart condition, just shooting the firearm without hitting him will not do it.

Another thing, God forbid you do ever have to use your firearm to defend yourself, but what is going to be your answer when the DA or, in my case Commonwealth Attorney, asks why you felt the need to carry hotter ammunition than normal? I do not recommend anyone to carry +P or +P+ rounds unless you are a member of a police department or sheriffs department because you will be burned if you ever shoot someone.

I would practice with a couple boxes of what you will carry because certain firearms do not like certain rounds ie 1911's generally do not like hollow points. However, I would think twice about carrying +P or +P+.

Stay safe.

 

[DontShootMe]

twolf

I do not recommend anyone to carry +P or +P+ rounds unless you are a member of a police department or sheriffs department because you will be burned if you ever shoot someone.

Why do they sell +p home defense ammo then? Are LEO's more responsible? Higher skill level? Because they have a reason to shoot someone and a citizen does not?

What do you mean 'burned' ???

 

[twolf]

police officers and such

Here is something most people do not know, most police officers and police deaprtments do not even use +p or +p+ ammo. Most agencies use Corbon ammunition. When I say you are going to be burned, I mean it. The DA's and Commonwealth Attorneys do not want people looking to blow someone away because they bump into another person wrong. If you ever do shoot someone, you will have your weapon confiscated by the police to ensure everything is legal on it. They will check your ammunition and the setup of that weapon. Then they will talk to everyone that witnessed it. If there is no one else that saw it, they will look at the facts or the lack thereof. If they prosecute and you used a +p load for example, they are gonna put it in the mind of the jurors that you could have bought regular self defense ammo but didn't. You bought the most lethal ammunition you could because you wanted to kill someone. Now they have a jury thinking that the defendant is a wannabe Wyatt Earp.

As for your question, why do they sell it? Because people will buy it. They sell rat shot for firearms because people buy it. Rat shot is the worst thing for any firearm but they sell it.

As for the question, are they "higher skilled"? I sure hope so.

Here is another question for you. What are the walls in your house made of? People that normally buy +p+ ammo usually think more powerful is better. If you miss the intruder, where will that bullet stop? When people buy shotguns from me, they ask what loads should they keep in it for home defense. Most people would say 00 buck, take a piece of sheetrock with you to the range next time and shoot at it from, say 10' with 00 buck. It will cut clear through it. So will most +p+ rounds.

Most people think they are good marksmen. People alot smarter than either of us have conducted studies and found that your aim is cut in half in a real life shooting.

Shoot straight.

 

[PCRCCW]

"Here is something most people do not know, most police officers and police deaprtments do not even use +p or +p+ ammo. Most agencies use Corbon ammunition. When I say you are going to be burned, I mean it."

Heres something MOST PEOPLE do know and you probably shouldnt pass on to newbies without at least checking into it.................

CORBON is ALL +P ammo and has +P+ Velocities. Very few agencies use Corbon due to its cost. Every Agency/Dept in the country buys ammo on contract and if the ammo fits their "spec" for velocity and accuracy, will go to the lowest bidder. Simple.

Its politics....and business.

ANY FACTORY AMMO will hold up in a court of law. A defensive shooting case is not any different than any other court case.
FACTORY AMMO....+P/+P+ or not will easily stand its ground.

Your arguement completely negates the use of JHP's also. +P and +P+ ammo was designed and manufactured to stop a person quicker than not using it. If their wasnt a legal and logical purpose for it...It wouldnt exist.

ALL AGENGIES/DEPTS use JHP ammo in their sidearms. WHY?
Because it has a proven track record for stopping people faster and with less shots fired than FMJ! It also lessons the risk of a "Friendly fire" incident....general public getting hurt do to over penetration and missed shots.

+P and +P+ take the same theory of JHP's vs FMJ's to a higher plane ............thats all.

The ONLY ammo that will not stand up in court , even with an semi decent public defender, is RELOADS!

Do yourself a favor and snoop around the net...Ive seen published lists of what the most common ammo used by Law Enforcement. It does include +P ammo....Sabers, Dots and Hydra's are very common.

BTW.....Most police are not that great in the accuracy dept.
The police/ex officers on this board will back me up......

Most dont fire their weapons while on the job except for their annual recertification.

The average hit ratio across the country is in the 20-30% range for law enforcement shoot outs that get recorded.

Check into what your local LE carries and Ill bet your pleasantly surprised.

Get a good selection of Defensive ammo for your gun.....whatever you have researched and think is what you want to carry. Try it in your gun...check reliability and accuracy and go from there.

Shoot well.

 

[twolf]

Wrong Wrong Wrong

Other loads available are: (all data from Cor-Bon's literature)


9mm 125 gr. JHP 1275 fps
38 Special +p+ 115 gr. JHP 1300 fps 4" revolver
38 Special +p+ 115 gr. JHP 1116 fps 2" revolver
357 Magnum 125 gr. JHP 1450 fps 4" revolver
40 S&W 150 gr. JHP 1200 fps 4.5"
10mm Auto 150 gr. JHP 1300 fps 5"
10mm Auto 180 gr. JHP 1175 fps 5"
380 ACP 90 gr. JHP 1100 fps 3.5"
44 Special 170 gr. JHP 1000 fps 4"


The above data is from Cor-Bons website. I see one that is +p+ and that is .38 special. Please name a police deaprtment that still uses .38 special and I'll show you the sheriff, Andy, and his lug headed deputy, Barney.

Now, I never said anything about JHP's.

Next, I have talked to several cops. My uncle is a state trooper. My garndfather was an FBI Special Agent. I am an FFL so I talk to BATF guys all the time. Guess what ammunition they all use.

The reason they can burn you on reloads for self defense is that most people would load them hot. In New York last year a man was arrested for defending his family in his home. The reason, he did not have a permit to OWN a gun. He had applied twice for one. The first company went outta business and the second had just sent his application in. Ten years ago this would have never happened.

There is plenty of good quality out there without using +P or +P+. It hurts the life of your firearm and it could burn you in court.

I am also a corrections officer so feel free to use whatever you want. I'll be waiting.

 

[twolf]

Forgot one

My wife is also a cop with my "local" LE's. They carry .40 cal Cor-Bon.

 

[PCRCCW]

HELLO???????????

You agree with me and dont even know it. 125gr 9mm @ 1275 FPS...and its not +P???????????????????????????????????????

For reference.....the +P+ 127gr Ranger clocks at less than that!
And its one of the hottest around................

Im not saying its not hard on your gun....but its basic knowledge that you can make it very easy on your gun....actually just as easy on your gun as standard pressure rounds, if you do it correctly.....heavier recoil springs etc.

+P isnt always advantagous.....Ill admit. But more times than not the pressure adds velocity which adds expansion. You being an FFL know that is the concept behind +P loads.

How do you think Corbon 9mm 125gr hits 1275 fps? (and it does say +P on the Box and creates +P+ pressures...just to let you know) The website doesnt always pass ALL info on.

I spoke too soon and apologize that I said Corbon isnt used anywhere....when an agency can choose its own ammo without a contract or bean counter interference.....Im sure some do use Corbon. But Fed. Hydras, Gold Dots and Sabers are at least as
used in the Field. Hydras are the top of the list for UT Agencies, Local, State and Federal.

The analogy of JHP's was just to make my point.......+P is made and used with a purpose and a real advantage in MOST GUNS!
Not all but most.....the advantage is real and just like JHP's vs FMJ's.......can easily be justified in court. Just dont carry Reloads.
Not only do people load them hotter but some are careless when doing so and make inconsistant loads...some just dont fire at all.

I also await your reply.........respectfully, me............Shoot well

 

[twolf]

SAAMI

I emailed the guys at SAAMI and asked them exactly what makes a +p or +P+ round. This is what they wrote back.

S.A.A.M.I. establishes Maximum Average Pressures (MAP) for cartridges in the U.S. It also establishes + P pressures that are higher than MAP with correspondingly higher velocities. +P+ again result in higher pressures & velocities. The intent of all was to increase bullet energy & expansion not enhanced penetration.

I still stand by my original that democrits would try to burn you and personally I do not want twelve people hearing words like greater expansion in the middle of my trial.

One another note, I buy silver tips and Hydra Shok's, both have excellent expansion and both have better than 1000 fps velocities. Both are also sub-sonic rounds. If anyone can show me someone that can move at 1001 fps, I will rethink my philosophy on +p or +p+.

One other that I would not repeat if I ever did have to defend myself.........

Two in the body and one in the head, you know they're dead!

 

[Al Thompson]

"One another note, I buy silver tips and Hydra Shok's, both have excellent expansion and both have better than 1000 fps velocities. Both are also sub-sonic rounds. If anyone can show me someone that can move at 1001 fps, I will rethink my philosophy on +p or +p+. "

By definition, if the bullet exceeds roughly 1000 fps, it's supersonic, depending on altitude.

Great that your folks are all LE, but Lynchburg must have some crackerjack LE orgs. I can state with a great deal of authority that few if any departments here use Corbon. The two leaders in SC are Gold Dots and HydraShoks.

Things may be different in VA, but there is no literature that suggests any legal problems with +P or +P+ ammo. There are no mainstream firearms trainers that suggest such nor are there any statues (TTBOMK) that address the velocity of a handgun round. Some places are anti-hollow points (PDRNJ). If your logic was correct, there wouuld be no magnums or any handgun ammo that exceeds a 1000 fps speed limit.

 

[twolf]

literature and trainers?

Literature will not book you for Manslaughter and trainers do not prosecute you! Ask any attorney, it does not matter that they can prove when it comes down to it, it matters what they get the jury to believe.

I know trainers that teach that if you are attacked, you have the right to defend yourself. Do you? In most states, you are required to flee if at all possible.

According to SAAMI, all ammunition that is +p or +p+ has to be marked because if not, they could blow the gun apart. This is called liablist. It is also called lawsuit. I have my box of Federal Hydra-Shok JHP's in front of me, it does not say +p or +p+.

Maybe, it is suppose to be 1000 fps but I'm not an engineer. All I know is Federal Cartridge does not have the Hydra Shok's listed as +p. The do have some expanding FMJ's that are +p but they state that. There is no guessing. Take a look for your self. http://www.federalcartridge.com/ammocat20.asp?s1=1

Speer has Gold Dots that are both +p and regular loads but they are clearly marked on the box. Once again, don't believe me, look at their website. http://www.speer-bullets.com/default.asp?s1=7&s2=26

I state my opinion and you attack me. Next time, pack your lunch! The +p and +p+ has nothing to do with supersonic or subsonic. It has to do with pressures, that is what will blow your gun up. That is what allows the extra penetration. From what I have read, it has just as much to do with the bullet as the charge. And yes, we have great officers in this state. You calling them "crackerjacks" is an insult.

 

[Spackler]

Many agencies use whatever they got a low bid on. Cor-Bon may be fine ammo, but I'd bet more agencies are using Federal, Winchester, and Speer than Cor-Bon.

If anybody can cite a court case where somebody was prosecuted for using +P or +P+ ammunition, I'd be very interested. I don't think good shoots turn bad due to the ammo used, unless it's legally prohibited, like hollow-points in NJ, etc.

 

[Al Thompson]

Must be a regional thing. "Crackerjack" is considered a compliment down here. As in "Crackerjacks" - the candy.

In most states, you are required to flee if at all possible

Blatent mistruth. Very few states have the "retreat" laws. IIRC, most are in the NE. Each is different, one should check his or her state. This is internet disinformation.

I state my opinion and you attack me.

I have not attacked you . Your information may be accurate in your location, but is emphatically untrue in most other places.

The +p and +p+ has nothing to do with supersonic or subsonic.

Your absolutely accurate. It's a pressure issue.

That is what allows the extra penetration.

Increased velocity without an increase in bullet construction equals less penetration, not more. Think of the deer calibers shooting varmit bullets. They go faster, but tend to explode on impact as opposed to staying together and punching through.

This is, at best, a local issue and not one this is perpetuated in the rest of the US. I'd caution all members to get up to speed on local folibles and plan accordingly.