+P+ in J-Frame 38spl?

[bradvanhorn]

I've been thinking about shelving my Kel-Tec P-11 in favor of my S&W 638 Bodyguard (my old CCW). I was considering the Winchester Ranger 38spl 110gr+P+ (RA38110HP) for my 638, but I don't think I've ever used anything but non +p in the gun. Has anyone tried this load in this (or similar J-frame) gun? I don't recall this well, but I thought S&W said this was a no-no? Any comments are appreciated.

 

[HSMITH]

Why would you want to? If you want to shoot loads like that get a 357 in my opinion. The 38 snubs are best employed with reasonable ammo and good shot placement, not superbanger hot loads and questionable shot placement. Do you shoot it well? I know I can shoot mine so regular old 38's are fine with me since they will go where I want them to.

 

[bradvanhorn]

Yes, I shoot my 638 quite well. In fact, it was about six or seven years ago when one day at the range I was shooting both my S&W 638 and my Sig P228. I was both impressed and embarrased when I found I was shooting nice tight groups with my little 638, but could hardly keep all my shots with the P228 in the black. Operator error obviously... It just didn't seem right that I could shoot better with my pocket gun than with my full size auto, but that's how it turned out that day.

Anyway, the reason I asked about hot loads is not because I really want to shoot hot loads, but because I respect the Winchester Ranger line, and the 110gr +P+ is the only 38spl offering.

 

[HSMITH]

A very limited amount will be fine, but I would not advise shooting them for practice. Practice with a standard 110, POI should be very close. I would shoot just enough of them to make sure I knew where they were going to hit.

 

[Josey]

I wouldn't. Erosion, frame stretch, cylinder stress and ejector problems leap to mind. A KB is even possible. Buy a 357 Magnum if you want to shoot hot loads. I suggest a Ruger GP-100 or single action by Ruger also.

 

[J.M.]

I can't see where the gun will mind.

The difference between a .38spl m60, and a .357mag m60 these days is nothing but the depth that the chamber is bored out to. The .357 is no beefier than the .38.

Sure they put a three finger groove grip on the .357's and a two groove grip on the .38's, but they both have the same gun under the grips.
- JM.

 

[JNewell]

Not true, the M60/640s today are built on a different frame, the so-called "J-Magnum." It is not just a question of a longer cylinder and window. They are reinforced to take the additional pounding, though I'll bet that if you fire a steady diet of honest .357 Mag loads you'll get all kinds of looseness and wear.

The other question, though, is how much extra juice you're going to get in a 1.875" barrel? I wouldn't be surprised if most of the extra powder just winds up as muzzle flash.

 

[Old Fuff]

bradvanhorn:

You haven't indicated just how old your 638 is. I believe that S&W said it is O.K. to use a LIMITED amount of +P ammunition in some of the later-made guns, but not early ones. In any case I'm pretty sure +P+ stuff is not approved. I also wonder about the sights vs. point-of-impact because the earlier runs were regulated for use with the standard 158 grain load. Of course if you're close enough this probably wouldn't matter.

If you decide in favor of anybody's +P+ load in .38 Special I'd second the motion made by others that you consider a revolver chambered in .357 Magnum. However if it was me I'd stay with what you have and use standard loads. I don't think you'll get that much extra performance out of so short (1 7/8") a barrel. If you actually have to shoot someone I don't think they'll notice the difference either.

 

[dfariswheel]

DO NOT shoot +P+ ammo in ANY "J" frame S&W that was factory chambered in .38 Special.

Contrary to popular belief, there IS a difference between the newer "J" frames chambered in .357 Magnum and the older Model 36's chambered in .38 Special.

The risk of a KA-BOOOOOM is VERY high, verging on probable.

The difference between a Magnum S&W and a .38 Special S&W is the heat treating.
People often want to know if it's OK to re-chamber a Model 64 to .357, since the Model 64 is "exactly like the Magnum Model 65".

Not even close.
The 65 has special heat treating to handle the Magnum round, the .38 Special Model 64 doesn't.

For those who choose not to believe it's unsafe to shoot +P+ ammo in a Model 36, I direct your attention to Master gunsmith Jerry Kuhnhausen's book on gunsmithing the Colt revolvers.

The Colt "D" frame Detective Special is acknowledged as being a stronger gun then the smaller S&W 36.

Kuhnhausen shows several pictures of Colt Dick Specials blown apart by as little as a single round of +P+ ammo.

Quoting from Kuhnhausen's book. page 49:
"Figure 51- Shows a steel frame revolver with top strap, cylinder chamber, and frame strap blown. The frame is also cracked at the rear, and frame pins loosened.
This damage was caused by firing a single round of +P+ ammunition, which was abject foolishness.
The fact is that high pressure/high velocity +P+ rounds are "restricted use only" ammunition. These loads are intended for Magnum revolvers ONLY."


Firearms are built to safely handle the intended ammo, plus a generous safety factor.
S&W Model 36's, ESPECIALLY those older than 10 years old are not intended to fire mini-Magnum ammo.

Not only is this LITERALLY playing Russian Roulette, your gun will be damaged beyond repair in SHORT order.

 

[Jim March]

See also my comments to "PigPen" here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66245

----------

PigPen: your 649-2 can take moderate amounts of +P ammo, within reason: the Cor-Bons are abnormally hot, and some of the +P+ was labeled such just so cops could *say* they weren't running 357s .

This thread is about people who have 38Spl guns weaker than yours. In YOUR gun, the Winny 158+P lead semi-watcutters are one of the best possible choices out there and so long as you can cope with the recoil, you need shop no further. I wouldn't do ALL of my shooting in those, but a few boxes of range familiarity in it and a cylinderful to cap off each shooting session won't hurt it any.

As "+P" goes, those are very moderate in terms of gun stress.

There are a small number of JHPs in 38+P that also work in snubbies - the Winchester 130grain Supreme +P is a good one, and and loads based on the 125 Gold Dot (Speer, Proload, Georgia Arms, Black Hills, others) are quite nice too - and Speer is about to upgrade the projectile to a 130 designed for snubby performance, and that'll rock. But JHPs stress the gun a bit more than soft lead so if the gun is "barely +P capable" such as yours, or my Charter Arms Undercover, sticking with those Winchester 158+Ps might have merit.

My answer, in a gun much like yours: practice mostly with normal-pressure lead, have the Win 158+Ps as my home D load, practice with it sparingly. When the new 130 Speers come out, I'll see how they handle and shoot, and see what the gell-testers have to say (www.ammolabs.com and the like).

 

[Dienekes]

+P+ in J Frame (M37 airweight)

About twenty years ago when the +P+ 110 gr JHP LE load (Q4070), factory loaded by W-W and Federal came out for federal agencies I used it in a M37 Airweight. Not sure but I probably put 2-300 rounds of it through the gun before it went out of time. Sent it into S&W thinking that they might just want to scrap it but they were able to rebuild it. As I recall the main issue was ratchet wear and headspace. Still have the gun which has worked fine ever since--but practice loads are wadcutter or std. velocity and carry load is the 158 gr. Plus P SWCHP (very, very few actually fired through the gun).

One of the reasons my agency quit the load was that penetration was shallow anyway. They soon thereafter went to the 110 gr. 357 load and then to the 125 gr .357.

No, I wouldn't do it again for a number of reasons; but it does say something for the toughness of those little guns.

 

[TBeck]

If you are looking for a decent standard pressure .38 Special hollowpoint the standard-pressure (NOT the +P) 125 gr Nyclad by Federal is pretty good. I have a venerable non+P Chiefs Special and a Taurus 850 CIA. The Taurus gets the 158 gr +P LSWHP and the Chiefs Special gets the Nyclad.

I will also give the nod to Taurus for putting a full-length ejector rod on their snubbies. Those of us who fire hot loads appreciate it.

Like others here, I will be eagerly evaluating the 130 gr Gold Dots as soon as I can get a hold of some.

 

[Ala Dan]

Again, I agree with my friend HSMITH! If you
want something that HOT; by all means get your
self a .357. From a personal standpoint,
I'm not going to punish my vintage S&W model 60
.38 Special, by using +P+ loads; but thats just me
being me!

And with practice, I strongly believe that you could
excel to an acceptable level with the SIG P228!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

 

[Gary A]

Before Smith and Wesson produced the 640-1, the Centennial model chambered for .357, the first of the j-frame .357s, it had already been noted and reported that the Centennial was the strongest version of the j-frame, no doubt due to its unique design and construction. Some of the earlier .38 special Centennials with the steel frame were, in fact, marked ".38 Special +P+" right on the barrel as were some 3 inch heavy barrel Model 60s with adjustable sights. This is one of the reasons the Centennial was chosen as a platform for the first small .357. At that time, certain design changes developed for the .357 platform were phased into the .38 Special line including the alloy versions and Smith and Wesson began to rate even the Airweights as rated for plus P (not plus P plus which has no upper limit, really). No doubt part of the reason was Taurus plastering their ads for plus P rated snubbies all over the place. Anyway, Smith told me that my 642-1 Airweight was, in fact, plus P rated even though I purchased it before they began the new marketing campaign. They told me if there was a "-1" after the model number, my Centennial incorporated the changes. The point is that I have seen earlier versions of .38 special J-frames, steel-framed, the Centennial and the 3 inch full lug Model 60, visibly marked plus P plus on the barrel. This apparently did not apply to all models and versions. On another note, a technician at Cor-Bon once told me that the earlier 115 (I think) grain .38 Special +P+ loads from Cor-Bon produced pressures somewhere around 27,000 psi. Compare that to the SAAMI +P pressure limit of 18,500 psi and make your own decision whether you want to shoot them in any older or questionable J-frame. I'd do it in a Ruger SP101 .38 Special in a hearbeat but be more cautious with an older J-frame, myself. Just my experience with this issue.