I have heard that +P+ loads are only sold to LEO. Is this true? Why? Couldn't someone just hot load their own ammunition?
+P+ loads and law enforcement only
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There is no industry definition as to what +P+ is.
Some ammo for LEO only is because of its AP properties. For example RBCD. But I've never understood why ammo like that made by Federal or Winchester needs to be divided between LEO and civilian.
Some ammo for LEO only is because of its AP properties. For example RBCD. But I've never understood why ammo like that made by Federal or Winchester needs to be divided between LEO and civilian.
you are probabbly refering to the Illinois state polices 115 gr 9mm +P+ loads that winchester made for them ,that where for LEO use only , these where a superhot load . I have a box (empty of course ) of these Its rather interesting reading the warning statements on them . these where developed in the 70's and used up until the ISP went to the .40 S&W (btw these had a nasty recoil when I shot them )
Actually, there are lot more +P+ loads out there than the old Illinois SP load. The Remingtion 115-grains are common (and marked LE only), but they are generally available web. Winchester also markets a 127-grain +P+ Ranger T load (also a LE only), but again, generally available on the internet. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of any +P+ loads that are generally marketed to civilians (with an exception 155-grain .40 S&W). Remember that there is no SAAMI for +P+ so it could really mean anything, but you can generally count of the loads being well over standard pressure which is not good for the weapon, the shooter, or in my experience, accuracy.
As far as loading hot, yes you can, but it's your weapon you can blow-up and your medical bills to may--more than one handgun has been successfully destroyed by overeager experimentation.
As far as loading hot, yes you can, but it's your weapon you can blow-up and your medical bills to may--more than one handgun has been successfully destroyed by overeager experimentation.
"Law Enforcement Only," with the exception of wierd stuff like armor piercing ammo, is a marketing statement by the ammo companies, NOT a legal restriction on what you can own/shoot. Thus, if you buy some Winchester Ranger-T 127gr +P+ over the 'net, you aren't breaking any laws or anything (unless your state has specific wierd horrible gun laws or something like that).
The only stuff like that I've tried was the Winchester Ranger-T 127gr +P+. I got it for cheap, and shot a bunch of it out of my CZ-75B and SIG P210. It was very low flash, VERY accurate stuff (!), and noticeably hotter than the usual +P loads you'd find.
As for handloading, I have one word for you: carefully.
<-- safety glasses
The only stuff like that I've tried was the Winchester Ranger-T 127gr +P+. I got it for cheap, and shot a bunch of it out of my CZ-75B and SIG P210. It was very low flash, VERY accurate stuff (!), and noticeably hotter than the usual +P loads you'd find.
As for handloading, I have one word for you: carefully.
<-- safety glassesSome +P+ loads exceed the specifications that are approved for that particular cartridge. In time, or with extensive use they can batter some lighter handguns into submission, although they won't blow them up. Therefore manufacturers, always worried about liability, restrict the sale of such ammunition to law enforcement customers.
Back when officers usually carried .38 Special revolvers, or .357 Magnums loaded with .38 Special cartridges because their liberal overseers didn't want to really hurt some poor criminal, certain police agencies saw the +P+ as an answer to their problems. Then every few years they replaced the guns.
Back when officers usually carried .38 Special revolvers, or .357 Magnums loaded with .38 Special cartridges because their liberal overseers didn't want to really hurt some poor criminal, certain police agencies saw the +P+ as an answer to their problems. Then every few years they replaced the guns.
The industry has decided that's the way they want it. I think it's primarily a liability issue. They issue to police departments who control the type of guns it gets used in.
If they sell to the General Public, it's just a matter of time before Bubba blows up his 100 year old antique pistol with it.
I called Federal about some +P+ that I saw advertised by a wholesaler and asked them for the pressure spec. The rep hemmed and hawed and kept saying that it was really for law enforcement use only. I just kept being nice and finally he got the info for me. He must have told me that it was only for modern guns in good condition 10 times...
If they sell to the General Public, it's just a matter of time before Bubba blows up his 100 year old antique pistol with it.
I called Federal about some +P+ that I saw advertised by a wholesaler and asked them for the pressure spec. The rep hemmed and hawed and kept saying that it was really for law enforcement use only. I just kept being nice and finally he got the info for me. He must have told me that it was only for modern guns in good condition 10 times...
ever heard of Cor-Bon ? Peter Pi is a firm believer in the fastest bullet theory. he thinks all hot stuff should be available to the public
Erich
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Here in NM it's not really difficult to find shops selling boxes of ammo marked "Law Enforcement Only" to the public. I've got 145-grain +P+ "LEO" Hydra-Shoks sitting in the Colt Police Positive Special (2nd release) in the safe right now.
The boxes I personally won't buy are the "factory-seconds" marked "NOT FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT." Sounds like "RANGE ONLY" to me!
The boxes I personally won't buy are the "factory-seconds" marked "NOT FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT."
Sounds like "RANGE ONLY" to me! i thought +P meant 10% over standard SAAMI pressure and +P+ meant 20% over SAAMI standard pressure. have i been misinformed?
Bobby
Bobby
Erich
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In theory, LE guns are inspected and serviced annually. Broken parts are scrapped and sometimes there's a bit of tweaking here and there to keep it going. LE agencies have tighter controls over its firearms and more extensive record keeping.
Ammo mfgs want to limit the market their LE ammo goes to and as mentioned by another poster, don't want some old gun to go ka-bloom and thereby create liability. With LE agencies, the armorer or rangemaster is suppose to know what can go into what gun and so there's some inherent safety checks between the two.
Ammo mfgs want to limit the market their LE ammo goes to and as mentioned by another poster, don't want some old gun to go ka-bloom and thereby create liability. With LE agencies, the armorer or rangemaster is suppose to know what can go into what gun and so there's some inherent safety checks between the two.
I use the Federal Hydrashok 124grain +P+ and find it to be very mild shooting, albeit with a BIG muzzle flash.
When shooting this round outdoors in a mix loaded magazine with the very mild Winchester white box range ammo I couldn't tell any difference.
Other manufacturers +P+ loads may well be very hot, but the Federal stuff seems just about right for 9mm to me. It makes around 1220 fps out of a barrel length of 4 to 5 inches.
Newton
When shooting this round outdoors in a mix loaded magazine with the very mild Winchester white box range ammo I couldn't tell any difference.
Other manufacturers +P+ loads may well be very hot, but the Federal stuff seems just about right for 9mm to me. It makes around 1220 fps out of a barrel length of 4 to 5 inches.
Newton
Yes generally with commercial ammo that's about right, but as we know there are no specs for +P+.
I've seen subgun ammo that is loaded over 150% of standard pressure such as Hirtinberger surplus 9mm advertised as +P+.
That stuff makes over 500ft/lbs of energy.
Pressure alone is not the only factor or even most important in making a load "LEO Only" IMHO. My favored 147 grain 9mm Ranger load is standard pressure not even +p and still "restricted", Remington makes bonded golden sabres LE only, and I believe Federal even had (has?) a restriction on some "tactical" shotgun loads thats only outstanding feature was being underloaded.
As pointed out there were some specially loaded 9mm+P+ rounds loaded for LE only during the seventies likely because they were affraid of the ammo getting into el-cheapo guns but I think the big "LEO ONLY" move came later...
Winchester had the infamaus BLACK TALON load that got a bunch of bad press, needing to duck for cover or face a possible ban on one of there best designs they declared they would no longer sell the ammo to civillians. Press was happy and went away. It then became (again in my opinion) somewhat of a selling point in law enforcement catalogs "This ammo is so good we'll only sell it to you!". Oddly all the sudden lots of companies started coming up with ammo so darn good it needed the same restriction
Of the big four (Winchester, Remington, Federal, CCI,) CCI is the only company that does not have an "LEO only" load of some type.
Or if you want the short version of this post: MARKETING
As pointed out there were some specially loaded 9mm+P+ rounds loaded for LE only during the seventies likely because they were affraid of the ammo getting into el-cheapo guns but I think the big "LEO ONLY" move came later...
Winchester had the infamaus BLACK TALON load that got a bunch of bad press, needing to duck for cover or face a possible ban on one of there best designs they declared they would no longer sell the ammo to civillians. Press was happy and went away. It then became (again in my opinion) somewhat of a selling point in law enforcement catalogs "This ammo is so good we'll only sell it to you!". Oddly all the sudden lots of companies started coming up with ammo so darn good it needed the same restriction
Of the big four (Winchester, Remington, Federal, CCI,) CCI is the only company that does not have an "LEO only" load of some type. Or if you want the short version of this post: MARKETING
Actually, even CCI sort of practices LE Only for at least some it ammunition--I've seen quite a few fifty round boxes of Gold Dots marked LE Only, but I think the only difference is the quantity (fifty for LE and twenty for private citizens).
I wonder if this is a liability issue, considering the number of folks in the world who would ty to shoot NATO spec ammo out of an old WW-1 vintage pistol, the number who make non spec modifications on their new pistols and the number who might leave the ammo cooking in the trunk of their car all day before going to the range.
I didn't know there was even +P 40S&W loads, let alone +P+ loads... Show's how in the dark I am.
From Georgia Arms (Shear Power Plus)--all new ammo loaded with Gold Dots. Not sure I would try it in Glock (actually absolutely sure I would not), but it should work well in a steel-framed S&W or Browning HP, or just about any weapon actually designed for the .40 S&W.
in Israel we dont have such problems...
no LEO mags and +p+ 9mm are on the shelf at any gun shop
no LEO mags and +p+ 9mm are on the shelf at any gun shop
Erich
Member
Well, here nobody blows themselves up in a crowd!
It all evens out.
Reminds me, I've got to send another pizza to the IDF. . . http://PizzaIDF.org/
It all evens out.
Reminds me, I've got to send another pizza to the IDF. . . http://PizzaIDF.org/
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