+P shot in my 1949/50 S&W M&P 38 spc.

[OLDNEWBIE]

Without knowing it was any different than standard 38 spc my friend shot 6 rounds of +P out of my really cool 4" pre model 10. I've read different answers
to the +P in old guns. One person said that police used a hot 38 round that was the equal to +P but called something different. Gun seems fine nothing catostrophic occured but wondering if unseen damage possible? Does anybody
else shoot +P in their old 38special M&Ps? Also this was the 1st time for me firing it and I felt it was pretty innacurate past 40 feet or so using 158 grain semi wad cutters when compred to my 22lr 6" burgo revolver. Is a 38 not very acurate or do I need more practice?

 

[Old Shooter]

The 38 is accurate, you need more practice, you didn't hurt anything with half a dozen rounds of current day +p ammo.

Go buy some standard, non plus-p ammo, practice some more and enjoy your S&W 38.

 

[SaxonPig]

+P is loaded well below maximum allowable pressure. It is not a hot load. It is actually quite mild, in my opinion and the myth that +P is a powerful load is marketing hype. It's a 125 at 925 FPS for crying out loud. Pretty wimpy in my book.

Below is a 1942 M&P pictured with the 500 rounds of Remington +P and some of the 600 rounds of my own +P+ (same 125 JHP at 1,150 FPS) that I fired through it with zero effect. Nothing. Zip. Nada.

 

[14427H]

When your 10 was built it would have been hard to find anything that wasn't specifically a target load that wasn't as hot as what we call +P. The old "Hi-Speed" was a 158 lead bullet at around 1,150 FPS, admittedly it was sold for heavy frame Smith.

 

[LC '92]

At last, reality in a gun forum! Not hysteria! Mercy!
As stated above, nothing is hurt and +P is fine in your old Smith.
With best regards,

 

[Guillermo]

+P is marginally hotter than a standard pressure 38 special (10%...right SaxonPig?).

+P, is LESS powerful than the standard 38 Specials produced when your gun was built.

There is one thing to avoid and that is +P+ as there is no industry standard. It would be better to know the pressure that they are producing before you shot them.

SaxonPig can break out his old reloading manuals and give you specifics if you ask him real nice.

The bottom line is your gun is fine. Ignore the hysterical folks even though they can (accurately) quote Smith and Wesson warning you not to shoot +Ps in your gun. Know the facts and you can ignore the silliness.

 

[wnycollector]

Reading SaxonPig's rational explanation of today's +P ammo vs the standard pressure ammo of yesteryear comments about a year ago made me feel comfortable shooting limited +P in my old M&P's. A year later and ~200 rounds of +P through each gun I have seen no ill effects.

 

[Old Fuff]

There can be a problem with some (but not all) so-called Plus-P ammunition in older revolvers. The issue is not blowing up the gun, but that extensive use may contribute toward, or cause a condition called cylinder end shake. This is where the cylinder is able to move back and forth (as opposed to rotational movement). The condition is progressive, in that once it starts it gets worse at an increasingly faster pace. Cylinder end shake is neither expensive nor difficult to fix, but it can make the cylinder hard to open, or even result in misfires.

Smith & Wesson’s position is that limited use of Plus-P ammunition in those revolvers stamped with a model number is not of concern. Otherwise it might be. They did not start heat-treating cylinders in K-frame revolvers until about 1927 at serial number 316,648 (.38 Special) or 81,287 (.32-20). At one time they would hand fit the cylinder to the yoke barrel (the part the cylinder revolves on, and is in effect a thick wall tube) and then flame harden the end to prevent end shake, but this sort of thing was ended during World War Two to speed production, and never came back.

So far as I know, all current and recent past .38 Special revolvers from the major manufacturers are rated to use Plus-P ammunition, and these are the best choice for those that absolutely must have every last FPS of velocity they can get. Plus-P has become more of a marketing ploy then a performance standard, but so long was some smaller ammunition makers push the envelope some judgment should be used when picking fodder to use in really older guns. "Older" can mean 1899, forward...

 

[Guillermo]

made me feel comfortable shooting limited +P in my old M&P's.

SaxonPig is a smart guy

shoot all the +P you want

 

[Publius1688]

+P is phooey made to sell more ammo.
You won't hurt that old Smith with factory loads that are churned out these days.
Shoot to your hearts content. Then, buy yourself a nice RCBS or Lee press, some dies, and start making your own.

 

[SaxonPig]

"They did not start heat-treating cylinders in K-frame revolvers until about 1927 ..."

And this is why I use the 1930 date. I figure by that time they had it right.

Of course, the whole +P debate is based on the misconception that +P is loaded hot. It is not.

 

[Guillermo]

Old Fuff,

Since the standard 38 special ammo in, say, 1955 was more powerful than todays +P, are you saying that Smiths are prone to end shake or is it your assertion that there is something else about modern +P (quicker burning powders perhaps) than creates this phenomenon?

Of course there is the third option...

 

[OLDNEWBIE]

Thanks for all the help people. Although I feel it's safe to shoot +P ammo I'll probably be shooting standard. Stands to reason that less powerful = less wear and tear. My only thought now is perhaps the weaker standard ammo is the reason I cant shoot accurate at 40 feet or so. Would the difference in velocity of standard modern ammo not coincide with the factory sight setting designed for 1950s ammo?

 

[Oro]

Would the difference in velocity of standard modern ammo not coincide with the factory sight setting designed for 1950s ammo?

The projectile weight is generally more influential given the relatively narrow velocity difference between standard and +p ammo. Were you shooting 148gr or 158gr weight ammo? That's the range you want to be in for matching the standard sights. By "accurate" - do you mean you put all the rounds in a tight group but not at the point of aim, or that you have a wide pattern?

Most importantly, practice with it and dry-fire. This will help master the double-action shooting process. I have found these guns to be amazingly accurate with a wide variety of loads.

One person said that police used a hot 38 round that was the equal to +P but called something different.

That little tidbit from someone is a bit off. Police were using a "hot" .38 round from 1930 onward called the ".38 High Velocity" or ".38 HV" round. It was very different than modern +p ammo. It was the pre-cursur of the .357 magnum, and was 13.5 grains of 2400 powder under the 158gr lead bullet. It was only used in stronger N frame revolvers, and was about equal to some modern (downloaded) .357 magnum rounds. It was certainly a "hot" .38, but not for use in M&P revolvers.

 

[336A]

S&W did at one time endorse the use of .38/44 also known as HI SPEED ammunition in the K frame .38 SPL. However with that being said I certainly would not do so and strongly advise against others doing so as well. BTW 13.5gr of 2400 under a 158gr bullet is not a .38/44 load. That is a true magnum loading. Another that Elmer Keith would use was his 173gr SWC bullet and the same charge weight of 2400. Both loadings are in fact a couple that lead to the development of the .357 magnum. A .38/44 loading would be more along the lines of a 158gr lead bullet & 11gr-12gr of 2400.

Here is an old advertisement from S&W endorsing the use of .3/44 ammo in their K frame guns. However again don't anyone be foolish and fire .38/44 ammo in your K frame.

 

[OLDNEWBIE]

Interesting old ad, Car had a jumpseat! In answer to Oro I was shooting 158 grain semi wadcutter. By not accurate I mean I was hitting the "target" a piece of scrap metal about as big as a car battery perhaps 1 out of 6 rounds, each time seemed low. not getting groups and only fired 30 rounds. Shooting some 3/4 " ply-wood at close range, 20 feet aprox. I got a pretty good group or two but low to the right. My friends wife "Annie Oakley" Did a little better than me.

 

[Oyeboten]

Wow...very interesting Ad indeed there 336a...


Yeah, I agree, I would not want myself or anyone else to be feeding old 38-44 Loads to a sweet little pre-war Snubby..! Or any other pre-model 10 K-Frame...even if in theory, the Revolver would abide it.

If for a Model 10-something, sure, if sparingly maybe.

OLDNEWBIE,


The Accuracy question there with those Cartridges in that Revolver...I dunno.


The Revolver - if all is well with it, and with the Shooter - should be able to hold quite tight ( 'Silver Dollar' or better ) groups at 20 Feet, or twice that at 40 ft, even if a Snubby...let alone when having a longer sight radius.

Does the 'pin' which is located top front of the Frame side, which goes through the periphery of the screwthreads of the Barrel...does the Pin or it's immediate surround appear to be marred or messed with?

 

[Guillermo]

336A certainly proved that modern +P ammo is absolutely fine in post 27 revolvers

 

[Old Fuff]

336A certainly proved that modern +P ammo is absolutely fine in post 27 revolvers

Not really. Smith & Wesson and Winchester developed the .38/44 cartridge in or around 1930, and strongly recommended that it only be used in their N-frame .38/44 Heavy Duty revolver. But during the Great Depression sales were slow, and in around the middle-later 1930's Colt started advertising that the hot round could be used in their D-frame line of Police Positive Special and Detective Special revolvers. Backed into a corner, S&W preceded to make the same claim concerning the Military & Police model. For both it was a somewhat desperate ploy.

Both knew the 38/44 "Hi-Speed cartridge wouldn't blow up the lighter guns, and that the slow-burning powder used in it would mostly produce muzzle blast and flash when fired in short barrels. They also depended on the recoil being bad enough to discourage its use in light/short-barreled guns. In the relatively small number of cases where a gun was shot loose they'd either repair or replace it.

Following World War Two sales were much stronger, and in this better economic environment both companies dropped the reference to using the high powered round in smaller framed guns, but by that time the .357 Magnum was the new high velocity king-of-the-hill.

The Old Fuff can clearly see that on this issue he is :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
because people don't want to be told that they shouldn't use Plus-P ammunition in pre-model numbered Smith & Wesson or other revolvers.

What they want is someone to tell them that its O.K. - which probably most of the time, and within reason, it is. But Smith & Wesson will still say that Plus-P used extensively can shorten a revolver's service life (not blow the gun up) and are now pointing out that in some cases repair parts are no longer available, and this is especially true when it comes to older "long action" guns which haven't been made since 1946.

Today we have a segment of the market that is demanding the lightest/smallest possible revolvers, chambered to use the most powerful cartridges that are made. The sales departments at various manufacturers have levered the engineering department to come up with what these potential customers want, even if the concept is far from practical, and sometimes plain stupid. It should not come as a surprise that the gun makers have prevailed in getting some (but not all) ammunition companies to ease off the performance of some cartridges to extend the life of these guns.

Now go do whatever you want...

 

[Guillermo]

riddle me this batman

what is more powerful, standard pressure 38 special cartridges from 1952 or the +P of today?

 

[Guillermo]

BTW
1952 was chosen at random

grab whatever old reloading manual that you have handy

 

[mec]

The old speer handbooks listed heavy charges of 2400 for velocities higher than current plus p. Their test gun was an M&P (speer number 3, 1960) I shot these regularly in a 1949 M and P and a 1958 K 38 with no ill effects. Thousands of rounds.
Still, since the equivalent of these revolvers are no longer made, I will only shoot standard pressure loads in guns of that vintage now. No use shortening their servicc life for no real gain.

 

[OLDNEWBIE]

Pin is untouched and barrel is good Oyeboten. I just gotta get used to it I guess. "Squeeze the trigger" and all that sort of thing. I'm gonna take it down to the range next time and figure out what I'm doing wrong. I'm usually an o.k shot.

 

[wcwhitey]

Here is a copy of an older Lyman manual .38 Special Data. Looks to exceed many current +P loadings. Bill

 

[Guillermo]

Thank you Bill

That should put this issue to rest