Pakistani Milsurp 7.62 nato

[thexrayboy]

On another thread earlier discussing the Pakistani Ordinance Factory I had stated that I had ordered 1K of this ammo from Aimsurplus and would report on it when it arrived.

It came via the big brown truck of happiness this morning. It comes in the original sealed metal container. Unfortunately, unlike the SA .308 I have recieved this container is essentially disposable. Once you pull the tab and open it up to access the ammo you can no longer close and reseal the metal storage container. A minor inconvenience at most.

The ammo comes in 1k lots, 50 boxes 20 rounds each. It is well packaged and arrived in good condition. No evidence of moisture or rust. The packaging on the ammo I recieved is stamped POF 7.62 L2A2 with a stated manufacture date of 29Jan1980 and a lot number of 04/80.

Cursory inspection of a few boxes shows the ammo to be in decent shape.
So far no obvious cosmetic or structural flaws seen. Good crimps and well seated primers. I took a box of 20 out ( I am fortunate that I can walk 10 minutes from my house and am on BLM land) and tested it for function in a
CAI L1A1 sporter. All rounds fired with no discernible differences. As to accuracy I can not say with certainty. I was not firing from a bench at a target but offhand at a rock about 100 yds away. My impression is this is only of adequate accuracy compared to Hirtenberg and Lake City I have tried in the past, SA is also more accurate I believe. Part of the problem in the area of accuracy is that I was using a CAI weapon, these are not noted for being particularly accurate as compared to DSA and other FAL type weapons.

At $220 per K it is expensive by standards of just a couple years ago. Unfortunately the current shortage of milsurp .308 makes this type ammo more expensive than it should be if we could still get large amounts of SA , Hirtenberg, Santa Barbar etc. I would likely not use this ammo for mission critical applications but it appears to be adequate for general target shooting/plinking. Whether the price is adequate is a bit subjective. I'd like to see it sell for less but at the moment that probably isn't reasonable.

 

[ny32182]

Its already sold out, so... if you haven't ordered yet...

My case of 1K was delivered today. I will check it out when I get home.

 

[jagdpanzer347]

Wideners still shows some. They are top notch to deal with, much as AIM is.

-jagd

 

[TexasRifleman]

My case of 1K was delivered today. I will check it out when I get home.

Mine gets here tomorrow, and I've been worried since I ordered it with no idea what was coming. I'm somewhat relieved.

And I suspect we'll all be wishing we had ordered more of the stuff than we did in about 6 months from now

 

[ny32182]

Probably so.

The ammo can itself is kind of a pain in the ass. It appears to open somewhat like a sardine can, and is not resealable like the much nicer South African can. "Take hold of the wire loop and tear off the lid by giving a sharp pull". Heh... right. Maybe if you're Hulk Hogan, this is a good way to open it. I can only imagine skinny Pakis trying to do this in the heat of battle.

I'll go at mine with a hammer/crowbar tomorrow when I have some more time. I'm not too worried, all the reports I've heard so far are that the ammo itself is in pretty good shape, and I've seen pictures of cans that look a lot more beat up than mine.

 

[TexasRifleman]

The ammo can itself is kind of a pain in the ass

You're not kidding!!

The brown truck came today, and I'll be shooting some of this stuff over the weekend.

IF I can find 4 friends to help me tear that thing open!!!

 

[rockstar.esq]

May not be related but I watched the "Vice Guide to the World" On MTV wherein they send journalist correspondents to the most dangerous places in the world. The Pakistani weapons manufacturing center is some god for saken hilltop in the middle of nowhere and they've got people building guns mostly by hand while living in feculent caves. The ammunition being "manufactured" was mostly being done by 7 - 10 year old boys who were using a block of wood, a small metal bullet seater, and a hammer! They were squatting alongside a small bucket of gunpowder, a basket of bullets, and a box of primed casings. The ammo being discussed may or may not have come from this place but I'm certainly not interested in anything coming out of Pakistans arms market. In point of fact I'm a bit impressed that we still can't buy Chinese Norinco M14's yet Pakistani ammo is for sale here!

 

[USSR]

The ammunition being "manufactured" was mostly being done by 7 - 10 year old boys who were using a block of wood, a small metal bullet seater, and a hammer! They were squatting alongside a small bucket of gunpowder, a basket of bullets, and a box of primed casings.

rockstar,

That would be how things are done in the tribal area. In the Pakistani Government Ammunition factory, the 7 - 10 year old boys use a BIG metal bullet seater and a BIG bucket of gunpowder.

Don

 

[rockstar.esq]

Hey if that's true then it's probably fine. I'm still a bit "struck" by what I saw and I'd rather not support the Pakistani government (and associated concerns therein) for the forseeable future.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I'm certainly not interested in anything coming out of Pakistans arms market.

Maybe you should rethink using MTV as your sole source of world information instead eh?

I'd rather not support the Pakistani government

This ammo is quite old, certainly not made by the current Pakistani government, and likely not even sold to AIM by them.
No telling where this stuff has been warehoused for the last 20+ years.

 

[bofe954]

Here's a pic of some paki ammo. I don't know about pakistan's labor laws in the era that this ammo was made or the current one. I would say that if the ammo is made by 7-10 year olds, they know what they are doing and have decent equipment.

 

[ny32182]

You're not kidding!!

The brown truck came today, and I'll be shooting some of this stuff over the weekend.

IF I can find 4 friends to help me tear that thing open!!!

I spent about 15 minutes cutting the side off of mine with a Dremel. Yes, I was very careful not to Dremel the ammo inside, as that could have ended very badly. Ammo looks to be in decent shape. In the boxes I checked, there is a very small bit of corrosion here and there, but nothing bad. I'll shoot some of it next time I take a FAL out...

Ammo is maufactured and packaged at the POF, not on a hilltop by 10 year olds.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Well as usual I wish I had bought more.

I shot 60 rounds of this stuff through my Fulton M14 over the weekend and it shoots about the same as the SA Battlepack stuff. No failures, no mess, no funny smell.

It's perfectly fine surplus ammo, feel free to ignore the doom and gloom crowd.

 

[Gewehr98]

You're putting that crap through your new Fulton Armory M14 shorty?

 

[TexasRifleman]

Sure why not. It's just ammo. It's to spec, it's not corrosive.
Mine was very clean, I truly can't tell the difference between this and the SA stuff other than the case is a slightly different color.

I think some of you get a little too carried away worrying about that stuff

What possible damage could result? I'd honestly be curious to know.

Misloaded somehow and overpressure? That could randomly happen with Lake City or Federal Match ammo or anything else you bought.

The AR guys went through this with the Wolf. Oh no!! Don't shoot that stuff in your AR, it will <insert horrible tradgedy here> if you use it. No one even talks about it any more.

If I had a weapon that would not shoot a standard load of FMJ I'd sell it.

I didn't buy the rifle to look at, and if all I shot in it was Black Hills match ammo that's what I would do, look at it and wish I could afford to shoot it

Over at warrifles there are several Fulton folks shooting the stuff.

It's affordable, and given the ammo situation it doesn't look like there is improvement any time soon.

 

[CDignition]

What kind of shipping charges are you guys seeing for 1K rounds from Weidners?? Just curious...anyone wit ha Cetme try it yet?? thanks

 

[ny32182]

Glad to hear its working for you...

I also don't understand the argument of "why did you spend so much money on a rifle and put crap ammo in it"?

Well, because I spent money to get the most reliable, most mil-spec rifle possible. If a milspec rifle can't run milspec ammo, I didn't get my money's worth.

Military rifles are designed to be reliable under all conditions. That is their primary goal. If you've paid a lot of money for a precision rifle, and its primary goal in life is high accuracy, then it makes sense to feed it match ammo all the time, because that is what it was designed to work with. That isn't the case with a FAL, PTR-91, USGI-ish M14, etc.

 

[Lucky]

Holy Chist-mas, so much prejudice, without effort to look it up.

If the headstamp is POF:

http://www.pof.gov.pk/MultiMedia/6MinPromo.MPG

They don't look like amateurs.

 

[Gewehr98]

To each their own.

I can only laugh when folks buy Remington 700 PSS/LTR or 40X rifles, or drop close to 3 grand on an accurized M1A/M14 clone, and they come back to THR and ask why their guns didn't group as tightly as the test targets show after they ran Radway Green, Cavim, or similar through their exquisitely built-up guns. That then begs the question, why install a Krieger barrel with match chamber and have the gun bedded, gas system unitized, and further accurized, if one plans on dumping crap surplus through it like grass through a goose? Lest we forget, the acceptance standards for 7.62mm NATO ammo don't really call for gilt-edge accuracy, it's closer to 4 or 5 MOA. 5 MOA ammo through a quality barrel still doesn't equate to 1 MOA performance, even if the gun is $3K, and no precision rifle maker worth his salt will guarantee the accuracy of his product without specifying quality ammo.

In other words, since one spent so darned much money on the purchase/fitment of a quality rifle, why all of a sudden go cheap on the ammo, when good Federal Match and Black Hills ammo is available. Heck, even if you spent your inheritance on the rifle and can't afford cases of new Federal Match, a Dillon 550 and components would amortize fairly quickly and make that gun really show its potential at the range.

But it's your bar of soap and washcloth, you guys can scrub as hard and fast as you want to. I won't call anybody a poseur here, but it makes one wonder how serious they are about using a quality rifle to its best advantage vs. just having a status symbol in the gunsafe or on the bench on range day.

Then again, I suppose I could run plain unleaded in a performance car like a Corvette C6, even though the manual and gas gauge say "Premium fuel only". The car will simply retard the ignition curve to avoid detonation, and I can get by on cheaper fuel without the burden of the extra performance. It'll look good in the driveway, too.

 

[TexasRifleman]

In other words, since one spent so darned much money on the purchase/fitment of a quality rifle, why all of a sudden go cheap on the ammo, when good Federal Match and Black Hills ammo is available.

Because not every time I pull the trigger do I need to see a 1 inch group.

3 inches kills coyotes, several of which fell to the Paki and South African FMJ this weekend along with one skunk that wandered too close by.

I have a closet full of Federal match too, but there are times I just want to shoot the gun and watch the Coke can sink and it's not worth 75 cents per shot to sink that can.

but it makes one wonder how serious they are about using a quality rifle to its best advantage vs. just having a status symbol in the gunsafe or on the bench on range day.

Eh, no one is likely to see it but me. I always wanted an M14, now I have one, and I can afford to shoot it a lot too with a case of this stuff laying around.

 

[bofe954]

Gewher- No one here is talking about running milsurp ammo through an accurized bolt action.

No one here is posting about whether or not they will achieve sub MOA groups with paki ammo.

A Fulton shorty is a great example of an M1A but it isn't a bedded match rifle with a Krieger barrel and unitized gas system. It's a shorty, come on...

I should be reloading, I'll give you that, but even at the inflated milsurp ammo prices lately, reloading isn't cheaper and my time is worth more. I have time to shoot or reload now, not both.

As far as spending so much on the rifle and going cheap on ammo- I buy cheap ammo and I still spend more on ammo, supplies, targets and gun club memberships than I do on guns. I don't have that many gun purchases in my future but ammo usage is only going up, and cost is going up too.

My M1A is standard model made in the 80's, it isn't a Corvette, it's a decent reliable pickup. The milsurp ammo is what it was designed to use. I plan on picking up some black hills match ammo to see the difference and to get a better idea of what my M1A can do but I still need to snap up cheap ammo while it exists.

I may try using it in 3 gun matches. I don't need 50 cent rounds to hit A's, but I need to be able to go to matches and practice for a reasonable price.

If you aren't interested in using milsurp ammo why reply to a thread about it?

Not everyone is buying multi-thousand dollar rifles and shooting primo ammo for tight groups all the time.

 

[Grayrider]

I want to run enough ammo through my guns to feel competent in their handling and confident in their reliability. Surplus ammo will take care of that for me while staying within budget. It also approximates any military ammunition I might have access to in the future.

John

 

[texlurch]

"I want to run enough ammo through my guns to feel competent in their handling and confident in their reliability. Surplus ammo will take care of that for me while staying within budget. It also approximates any military ammunition I might have access to in the future.

John"

ditto, +1!!

Most "mil-spec" rifles floating around, are chambered for 7.52x51, so off the shelf match 308 isn't going to perform all that good anyhow.

Apples and oranges, I say!

 

[TexasRifleman]

Most "mil-spec" rifles floating around, are chambered for 7.52x51, so off the shelf match 308 isn't going to perform all that good anyhow.

No that's not correct. Although the chamber dimensions are slightly different, no one actually makes 7.62 that isn't to the .308 headspace dimension, at least no one that you're likely to find a source for.

Even loaded to the NATO specs you'll stil find .308 dimension there. The NATO spec really only calls for a LOT thicker brass vs standard 7.62

Some very few oddball rifles have a longer 7.62 chambering but you don't see them often, the Navy Garand being one that Clint McKee points to specifically watch for.

Jerry Kuhnhausen says that if you have a chamber with headspace much in excess of 1.636 then you must use only 7.62 spec.

McKee also says 1.631-1.632 is a near perfect headspace for an M14/M1A or M1 Garand chambered in .308 Winchester but that's also perfect for 7.62 spec so in the majority of cases there is no difference in accuracy or performance from .308 to 7.62 unless you have some funky headspace.

Unless you specifically ask for it, Fulton ships their rifles in that 1.631 - 1.632 range so there would be no difference at all in a Fulton.

.308 Match absolutely performs entirely better, drastically better. It's also approaching a dollar a shot.

 

[texlurch]

Sorry, I was thinking more along the lines of Saiga's, G3 and CETME, and FAL's, which are NATO spec chambers. Also the older M1A's and M14's, like my Federal Ordnance.

This is also a slight difference in the shoulder angle between the two, but that is another topic all together!