pax said:
DNS ~
Great argument ... now, for your homework.
Please explain to the class how the much higher rates of accidental shootings in Washington state, Alaska, and Vermont demonstrate how bad it is to have a large number of non-tested people who carry weapons in public. Alaska & Vermont, of course, require no permits at all. Washington has permits, but no testing or training requirement.
If all those untrained CCW holders were such a threat, the per-capita accidental shooting rates in those three states ought to support your thesis.
(But they aren't, and the statistics don't.)
pax
Pax, now for your homework. Go back and reread what I said. If you took the time and read carefully, you would see that I was downplaying the notion of CCW gun folks committing gun-related crimes and pointing out that the only real danger is the potential of accidents due to being unskilled gun handlers. Never once did I say or suggest CCW holders were a threat. Never once did I indicate how high that danger level was. You completely misinterpreted what I said, assuming that since I said the danger was higher from potential poor gun handling skill accidents than from intentional crimes by CCW people that I had somehow implied that this was a huge threat. I did nothing of the sort.
For part 2 of your homework, would you be so kind as to tell the class just where it is that you can find actual data on negligent discharges by gun owners that do NOT result in injury or death and explain to the class how the data were collected and the confidence level for the data as representing reality? Please be sure to review the NDs reported here on THR by THR members, noting the number of members who had non-injury/death NDs at home or otherwise in private where they reported the ND to the local police.
You attempted to send me on a Fool's Errand to find that which does not exist. From a debate perspective, it is a marginally good challenge in that it appears to put the burden of proof on my shoulders to make my point, only I called your bluff.
You can't tell the class about how the data were collected or the confidence level of the reported data representing reality, in large part for the reason that you will find in the self described, private, non-injury/death ND incidents on THR. They don't get reported, do they? Apparently, nobody ever does something like this...
Ring Ring, Uh Hello Police? This is Mr. Wilson at 8712 Magnolia Lane. I just wanted to call and let y'all know that I was practicing my quick draw skills and forgot to unload my gun, and I shot the TV. I am fine, but the TV is a goner. So, I just called to let you know I did something really stupid here inside the city limits where I wasn't supposed to be discharging my gun.
I will say this, you are correct in that the statistics don't support the thesis that you misinterpreted me as having. They don't support anything on this matter as the statistics are incomplete. They are incomplete by way of intentional bias by people who do NOT want to report their screwups. They only get reported when they have to be reported, such as when the discharge happens in a public place or when somebody is injured or killed. The danger exists, even if it doesn't result in a high number of injuries or deaths.
You used the term of "accidents" to describe such NDs. One of my favorite definitions of "accident" is that is that it is a negative impact or detrimental event that has a very high probability of occurring but in a very low frequency of occurences.
In a backhanded way and as an unintended consequence, I do appreciate the fact that you helped make my point about the the risk of Florida CCW folks in intentionally committing crimes. And please keep in mind here that I never claimed any specific level of danger by unskilled CCW gun handlers, only that the real danger was from being unskilled gun handlers, not committing intentional crimes. So your contribution, even though the data are unrealistic based on a lack of reported non-injury/death or public NDs, implying that unskilled gun handling "accidents" are quite low if fine by me. All I was saying is that the 'accidents' were more of a danger than the CCW people intentionally committing crime. If the "accident" rate is so low and the intentional crime rate by CCW people is lower, then the risk of intentional crime by Florida CCW folks must be really darned low, no?
If you do, by chance, come up with a method by which you can determine the number of negligent unreported discharges per capita that we can add to the number of reported negligent discharges, I would be very interested in seeing what sort of data patterns show up. Maybe you can find a web page that has the summary data of all NDs committed by state?
By the way and to my knowledge, of the few reported negligent discharges that happen in public but that result in no injury or death, those don't end up in any sort of tally lists. The per capita "accidental" shooting statistics to which you refer only involve those cases where the ND was in public or where injury or death occurred. So never mind, I will not attempt to send you on the same Fool's Errand.
For comparative purposes, take a look at the International Hunter Education Association annual reports for hunting "accidents." What sorts of data are presented? Really, they only report two types, non-fatal and fatal and of these, they are only for whether the accidents were non-fatal or fatal to humans. There is a striking ommission of NDs by hunters that do happen, but since nobody was injured or killed, there is apparently no need to report them. In two cases I know about, one guy shot and killed his dog while quail hunting. The muzzle was down and the gun discharged forward of the hunter while walking out to the hunting area from the truck. Unfortunately, the dog was walking ahead of the hunter and was killed. In another case, a guy blasted a hole in the bed of his truck while attempting to bag an apparently loaded rifle. Were these dangerous events? Yep. Are they part of any data set we can search to learn about negligental discharges? Nope.
I look forward to your completed homework assignment. Please be sure to show all work and provide apprpriate citations for your data sources.
Chambers..