Parker v. DC: Mayor Fenty to file appeal

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Federal Rights

And here I was under the impression that the government didn't have any rights, but only powers which were enumerated in the Constitution...

By Federal Rights, I meant rights found in the U.S. Constitution. Prior to the 14th Amendment, the Constitution afforded no protection against state authorities.
 
Rev Dead Corpse

It wasn't until biased court rulings came along trying to keep freed slaves from exercising these protected Rights that the whole 14th Amendment/Incorporation legal mythology came into being. It had no place in the Founders philosophy at all.

Precisely what I was referring to in my first post in this thread. :)
 
By Federal Rights, I meant rights found in the U.S. Constitution. Prior to the 14th Amendment, the Constitution afforded no protection against state authorities.

The Constitution's Bill of Rights was a declaration of the Rights of Individuals. Ratified by the States and Congress, they apply against both Federal and State attempts at infringement.

The prohibition is general. No clause in the constitution could by any rule of construction be conceived to give congress a power to disarm the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some general pretence by a state legislature. But if in any blind pursuit of inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be appealed to as a restraint on both. William Rawle 1829.
 
Rev. Deadcorpse

They do now. But that has not always been the case. Your earlier post mentioned the concept of incorporation which I alluded to with my mention of the Dred Scott case.
 
They do now. But that has not always been the case. Your earlier post mentioned the concept of incorporation which I alluded to with my mention of the Dred Scott case.

Clear cut case of "legislation from the Bench". All they had to do was dig up the original text of the Bill for Ratification.

The First 10 Amendments to the
Constitution as Ratified by the States
December 15, 1791
Preamble

Congress OF THE United States
begun and held at the City of New York, on Wednesday
the Fourth of March, one thousand seven hundred and eighty nine.

THE Conventions of a number of the States having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution.

RESOLVED by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, two thirds of both Houses concurring, that the following Articles be proposed to the Legislatures of the several States, as Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, all or any of which Articles, when ratified by three fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of the said Constitution; viz.:

ARTICLES in addition to, and Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America, proposed by Congress, and ratified by the Legislatures of the several States, pursuant to the fifth Article of the original Constitution.

"to be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of the said Constitution"

This was all the "incorporation" required. The Courts are bound to adhere to the Constitution via Art 6 Para 2. They are as bound by those provisions as the Legislature and Executive are. When the Second states "shall not be infringed", that should be the end of the story.

Our allowing them to get away with this is the only reason they think they can. Past due time to disabuse them of this notion.
 
The Constitution's Bill of Rights was a declaration of the Rights of Individuals. Ratified by the States and Congress, they apply against both Federal and State attempts at infringement.

Not true prior to the 14th Amendment, the original Supreme Court decision stating that the Bill of Rights does not restrain the states goes back to a point in time when the Justices on the Court had fought the Revolution (see Barron v. Mayor and City Council of Baltimore).

The 14th Amendment was passed in order to protect freed slaves in the newly unionized southern states after the Civil War. Ratification of that amendment was one of the conditions of rejoining the Union IIRC. However, the Court was reluctant to abandon the previous precedent and in the Slaughterhouse cases, it got inventive and decided that the 14th applied only to certain minor privileges and immunities and that in general, the Bill of Rights still did not restrain the states. This left a later Court to "overturn" the Slaughterhouse cases by inventing the incorporation doctrine. This eventually became the selective incorporation doctrine (rather than say whether all of the Bill of Rights apply to the states or not, we'll just take it case by case).

That is the Cliff's Notes version anyway.
 
Fenty is hoping for a win on standing grounds. He knows he has no hope with the 2nd, but the conservative judges might well go along with a standing argument.
 
more info in WashPost story

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/09/AR2007040900470_pf.html

D.C. Government Appeals Gun Ban Ruling

By Henri E. Cauvin
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, April 9, 2007; 1:40 PM

Lawyers for the District filed a petition this morning asking a federal appeals court to revisit last month's decision by a panel of judges that the city's gun law is unconstitutional.

After a three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit ruled that the city's restrictions on gun ownership violated the Second Amendment, Mayor Adrian M. Fenty (D) and other city leaders vowed to fight the decision. Today Fenty was at the federal courthouse when city lawyers filed the petition.

The mayor said that after all the work that has gone into bringing crime down, the city cannot afford to accept a ruling that would increase the number of guns in the city.

"More guns quite simply leads to more violence," Fenty told reporters outside the courthouse. He was flanked by Attorney General Linda Singer, Council members Phil Mendelson (D-at large) and Marion Barry (D-Ward 8) and Police Chief Cathy L. Lanier.

For decades the District has had some of the most restrictive gun laws in the country, prohibiting private citizens from owning handguns and limiting ownership and use of rifles and shotguns.

The restrictions have drawn the ire of libertarians, gun enthusiasts and others, and this is not the first time the laws have come under fire.

But with a decades-old Supreme Court ruling and numerous appellate rulings in the District's favor, the restrictions did not appear to be vulnerable to a Second Amendment claim -- until last month.

In an opinion written by Senior Judge Laurence H. Silberman and joined by Judge Thomas E. Griffith, the court found that the restriction on possessing a handgun in one's own home violated the Second Amendment, which states that a " well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Judge Karen LeCraft Henderson, who like Silberman and Griffith, was appointed by a Republican president, dissented.

The Second Amendment has long been the subject of legal and political debate.

The District could have appealed directly to the Supreme Court, bypassing a possible review by the full, or en banc, court and the case may yet appear before the nation's highest tribunal.

But Singer said the city's interests would be served by allowing the full appeals court to hear the case. "We want to give them a chance to look at this first," Singer said at the briefing outside the court house.

Barbara McDowell, who is an appeals attorney for the Legal Aid Society of D.C. and was a lawyer for the U.S. solicitor general for several years, said that the District likely views the court of appeals as a more receptive venue than the Supreme Court but that in this case, nothing is easy to forecast. "I think it's really hard to predict how judges will come out on an unsettled area of the law, such as the Second Amendment," she said.

What's more, McDowell said, a judge's interpretation of the Second Amendment may not necessarily line up with what are believed to be his or her traditional political leanings. For example, a narrow reading of the Second Amendment might be considered a "conservative" reading of the Constitution even though political conservatives have been more likely to champion an expansive view of the Second Amendment, she said. "So knowing whether somebody is conservative or liberal may not tell us much about how this case is going to come out," McDowell said.

With one of the court's 11 seats vacant, the case would be heard by 10 judges on the court and by Silberman. As a senior judge Silberman would not ordinarily sit for en banc reviews but would in this case because he was a member of the panel that issued the decision.

Singer said she expected the court would decide this spring whether to grant the city's petition for en banc review, and that if it did, the case would likely be argued in the fall.

While the petition and any appeals are pending, the District's gun laws remain in effect.

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Not true prior to the 14th Amendment

Actually, yes. True. The 14th came around because of other issues. Marshall was WRONG about the protections in the BoR not applying against the States.

"The whole of the Bill [of Rights] is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals … It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of." Albert Gallatin of the New York Historical Society, October 7, 1789

The Parker Decision re-iterates the Founders views quite nicely.
 
A question on the appeals process - I have been told, but can not verify, that if the appeals court does not grant DC's petition for an en banc review that the USSC can, on their own, decide to take the case anyway if the USSC justices decide that it is important enough to do so. Yes or no?

And with Silberman on the panel we know that's at least one pro-gun vote...
 
Actually, yes. True. The 14th came around because of other issues. Marshall was WRONG about the protections in the BoR not applying to the States.

It would be nice when discussing legal arguments if people would distinguish between what they think the law should be (or should have been in this case) and what the law actually is when they make statements in a tone that implies they are factual. In this case, you are obviously of the opinion that Marshall was wrong. In fact though, Marshall's decision was the law of the land from 1833-1879 or thereabouts... which is the only point I was trying to make.

Bubbles said:
A question on the appeals process - I have been told, but can not verify, that if the appeals court does not grant DC's petition for an en banc review that the USSC can, on their own, decide to take the case anyway if the USSC justices decide that it is important enough to do so. Yes or no?

If the losing party petitions the Supreme Court, they can hear the case even though the en banc court denied review. If the en banc court denies review here though, it is a loss for the city - Parker will be standing precedent in the D.C. circuit that all other three-judge panels will be bound by (though the en banc court can still overturn it later).
 
It would be nice when discussing legal arguments if people would distinguish between what they think the law should be...

It would be equally as nice if people paid attention. In this case, particularly to history. William Rawle was a lawyer and Professor commissioned by the US Congress to write a teaching treatis on the Constitution and it's ramifications. One apparently that Marshall either disagreed with or never read.

Eastern District of Pennsylvania, to wit.

BE IT REMEMBERED, That on the twenty-ninth day of January, in the forty-ninth year of the Independence of the United States of America, A. D. 1825, WILLIAM RAWLE, Esquire, of the said district, has deposited in this office the title of a book, the right whereof he claims as author in the words following, to wit:

"A View of the Constitution of the United States of America By William Rawle"

In conformity to the Act of the Congress of the United States, entitled "An act for the encouragement of learning, by securing the copies of maps, charts, and books to the authors and proprietors of such copies during the times therein mentioned." — And also to the act entitled "An act supplementary to an act entitled 'An act for the encouragement of learning, by securing the copies of maps, charts, and books to the authors and proprietors of such copies during the times therein mentioned,' and extending the benefits thereof to the arts of designing, engraving, and etching historical and other prints."

D. CALDWELL,

Clerk of the Eastern District of Pennsylvania.

Predates Marshall's ad hoc re-writing of the Constitution in 1933 by a good 5 years. Sorry to rain on your hero worship, but Judges are bound to uphold the Constitution by Art 6 Para 2. They have ZERO authority to change it to mean anything other than what it does.

The Right of the People to Keep and Bear Arms Shall Not Be Infringed.

Period. End of story. It matters not one whit who is doing the infringing. Incarceration after a legal proceeding is the only way to remove someone's access to their Rights. Judicial OPINIONS stating to the contrary have no force of legality as they are explicitly re-writing the legislation. A power and duty outside the scope of the Judiciary.

Of the amendments already adopted, (for which see the appendix,) the eight first in order fall within the class of restrictions on the legislative power, some of which would have been implied, some are original, and all are highly valuable. Some are also to be considered as restrictions on the judicial power.

The constitutions of some of the states contain bills of rights; others do not. A declaration of rights, therefore, properly finds a place in the general Constitution, where it equalizes all and binds all.

Each state is obliged, while it remains a member of the Union, to preserve the republican form of government in all its strength and purity. The people of each state, by the amended constitution, pledge themselves to each other for the sacred preservation of certain detailed principles, without which the republican form would be impure and weak.
William Rawle.
 
I'll personally put $100 toward a nearly identical placard with only an index finger extended and the words "trigger finger: since the mayor can't protect you" or something to that effect to be put on one of the buses.
 
It would be equally as nice if people paid attention.

Yes, it would. For example, if you had paid attention, you would have noticed that I wasn't arguing for or against a particular interpretation. I was just explaining what the law was; because it can be difficult to understand what the law is now if you don't understand what it was in the past.

It is even more difficult to understand when someone is explaining it to you and somebody else chimes in "That's not what the law said! The law said something 180 degrees opposite of that" without bothering to explain that regardless of how much or how little support that view had, it was never adopted or treated with any legal substance.

Can you understand where explaining the history of the 14th Amendment might be confusing to someone when you have a person claiming that the very thing the 14th Amendment accomplishes is already embodied in the original Constitution and that was the law all along? Do you think it is perhaps just the tiniest bit disingenuous to state your views on the law as a fact without explaining that no court or legislature has ever actually adopted those views?

William Rawle was a lawyer and Professor commissioned by the US Congress to write a teaching treatis on the Constitution and it's ramifications. One apparently that Marshall either disagreed with or never read.

Yes, disagreement among the founding fathers wasn't uncommon. Thus the whole debate between Federalists and anti-Federalists. So it isn't all that unusual to have disagreement among people who actually fought the Revolutionary War.

Sorry to rain on your hero worship, but Judges are bound to uphold the Constitution by Art 6 Para 2. They have ZERO authority to change it to mean anything other than what it does.

Sorry to rain on my hero worship? Was that comment necessary or even helpful? How is my pointing out what the law actually was between 1833 and the doctrine of selective incorporation "hero-worship" in your eyes? Maybe you should slow down a bit and just address what I write instead of using your psychic powers to address arguments that I never wrote; but you seem to think I believe?
 
I was just explaining what the law was...

I know what the current legal fiction is. The state of the Law is "shall not be infringed". The Courts rather creative interpretation of this is out of step with Founding intent, logic, and the plain meaning of the text of the Constitution.

Sorry to rain on my hero worship? Was that comment necessary or even helpful?

No more so than your assumption of ignorance in regards to my acumen.

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, and this without any qualification as to their condition or degree, as is the case in the British government. St. George Tucker. 1803

The Founders were at odds as to the methodology of sustaining our Liberties and Rights. Seeing todays legal landscape would have them burning State capitol buildings from "sea to shining sea". Re-iteration of Judicium semper pro veritate accipitur absent historical fact is how the legal system has been used to incrementally strip us of our Freedoms.

"The judiciary of the United States is the subtle corps of sappers and miners constantly working under ground to undermine the foundations of our confederated fabric. They are construing our constitution from a co-ordination of a general and special government to a general and supreme one alone. This will lay all things at their feet..." Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Ritchie, December 25, 1820

Your statements pretty much prove out Jefferson's above suspicions of the Judiciary.

We know where we are. We know, from history, where we should be. The only question that really remains is how do we get from here to there? The two avenues I see are for a clean SCOTUS decision over turning 22,000+ unConstitutional gun laws, or by force of arms in a new Civil War.

I'd rather we try and push Parker through the SCOTUS. Time enough for other "options" later...
 
No more so than your assumption of ignorance in regards to my acumen.

Well, ignorance isn't all that uncommon here. I myself am ignorant about a great many things; but I do know case law on the Bill of Rights prior to the adoption of the 14th Amendment and your view is not supported by it. From a practical perspective, this means that someone trying to understand the 14th Amendment isn't going to find your elocutions on the law useful in understanding why the 14th Amendment is important today. Had you simply clarified that you were speaking of the law according to RevDeadCorpse, it would have saved a great deal of confusion.
 
...but I do know case law on the Bill of Rights prior to the adoption of the 14th Amendment and your view is not supported by it.

I've given you quotations from those who wrote the Constitution, and those who taught the Constitution during that time frame. And yet, you'd prefer "case law". Says a ton right there.

Had you simply clarified that you were speaking of the law according to RevDeadCorpse, it would have saved a great deal of confusion.

Trite. It's the law according to Jefferson, Paine, Henry, Franklin, ect... That you continue to support an erroneous line of legal reasoning is coloring my perception of your supposed neutrality.
 
Well this has tuned into a fine thread.....

Maybe folks should take THR on this one....or maybe one of the Mods should close it down.
 
Practice = Meaning

In watching the foregoing debate, I note that the argument is put forth, on the one hand, that the law "says what it says" while the counter argument on the other hand is that "that's not what they're doing."

Yes, I know what the rules are, but how do you argue with the referee?

I agree that the Constitution has been systematically misconstrued. I agree that the Constitution (including BoR) is the ACTUAL law.

I further understand that "current interpretation" (by misconstruction) has led to "law" enforced by men with guns.

So we find ourselves in a situation where, in order to restore ACTUAL law, we must first navigate the shoals of PRACTICAL law.

Sticky, that.

I find it ironic that the citizenry must, in order restore the correct application of the Constitution, solicit the approval and endorsement of the very people responsible for allowing it to be corrupted in the first place.

Bizarre.
 
I've given you quotations from those who wrote the Constitution, and those who taught the Constitution during that time frame. And yet, you'd prefer "case law". Says a ton right there.

It says that I understand that if I walk into a courtroom, I will get a lot further quoting Supreme Court precedent on the subject than I will quoting William Rawles (who gave the interpretation of the Constitution you quoted prior to its ratification and prior to the interpetation of the highest Court in the land who apparently chose not to agree with that interpetation).

It's the law according to Jefferson, Paine, Henry, Franklin, ect... That you continue to support an erroneous line of legal reasoning is coloring my perception of your supposed neutrality

Well, it isn't very surprising that Jefferson, Paine, or Henry would disagree with Marshall since they were all anti-Federalists and Marshall was a strong Federalist. Of the three you mention, only Jefferson supported ratification of the Constitution. If Jefferson, Paine, Henry and Franklin are sufficient to make something law, then what happens when Washington, Hamilton, Madison, and Adams disagree?

Paine wasn't even around for the Constitutional debates as he was in France promoting the French Revolution and living in Pas-De-Calais as a representative to the French national convention. Paine, for example, wrote of Washington "I don't know whether you've lost your principles or never had any" and took no part in the Constitutional convention as far as I know, though his writings would certainly support the view you expressed.

Henry was THE leading antifederalist for a time and urged against adopting the Constitution at all. It was his insistence that eventually got the Bill of Rights included; but he eventually joined the ranks of the Federalists, joining Washington, Adams, and Marshall.

Franklin thought the Constitution was doomed from the start; but urged delegates to adopt it because he didn't think any better document could be created by that process:

"In these sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution with all its faults, if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other. I doubt too whether any other Convention we can obtain, may be able to make a better Constitution. For when you assemble a number of men to have the advantage of their joint wisdom, you inevitably assemble with those men, all their prejudices, their passions, their errors of opinion, their local interests, and their selfish views. From such an assembly can a perfect production be expected? It therefore astonishes me, Sir, to find this system approaching so near to perfection as it does; and I think it will astonish our enemies, who are waiting with confidence to hear that our councils are confounded like those of the Builders of Babel; and that our States are on the point of separation, only to meet hereafter for the purpose of cutting one another's throats. Thus I consent, Sir, to this Constitution because I expect no better, and because I am not sure, that it is not the best. "

My point being that you are citing selectively among the founding fathers to give an impression of unity on this issue when there was no such concensus. The people you do cite are consistently from the side that the people and states rejected when they ratified the Constitution. Personally, I think the anti-federalists have been proven mostly right by history. Almost all of their concerns have proved well-founded. However, I think that quoting solely from the losing side of the debate and pretending that this was the undisputed view of the Constitution at the time of its writing is a bit disingenuous.
 
Bartholomew Roberts

It says that I understand that if I walk into a courtroom, I will get a lot further quoting Supreme Court precedent on the subject than I will quoting William Rawles (who gave the interpretation of the Constitution you quoted prior to its ratification and prior to the interpretation of the highest Court in the land who apparently chose not to agree with that interpretation).

Well-put. One would definitely get further with precedents considering some of the judges on today's benches are advocates of a "living constitution".
 
Thanks for posting that, Gifted.

Wow...

pages 8 and 9 said:
How best to control gun violence is a complex topic, with many competing, passionately held views. The politically accountable legislatures—the Council of the District of Columbia as to District-specific legislation and Congress as to national legislation—are the best fora for considering such competing views. Whether or not they are correct, constitutional rulings like that of the panel majority severely limit what measures the political branches can take to address the concerns facing their citizens. Thus, the constitutional question posed here has real consequences in terms of lives saved or
lives lost.

There you have it, ladies and gentlemen, an admission that they don't care whether the gun ban is wrong, doesn't work, and is Unconstitutional; they still want the power to do it.
 
Okay, proves my view that the .gov qoutes the constitution when it agrees with it and ignores the constitution when it does not.

I suppose that this falls in line with the supreme court case where they said proof of innocence is not enough to appeal a conviction. IIRC IANAL.

NukemJim
 
After reading that I'm amazed they dont bring up standing. Do they WANT to lose? The en banc circuit isnt going to be any less willing to embrace the individual rights model.
 
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