VingThorr
Member
Does anyone know if Hornady's LEVERevolution ammo is still under patent protection? I'm just wondering if when the patents expire will all the major manufacturers start marketing their own flex tip bullet type ammo for leverguns?
patents and LEVERevolution
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rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Patents are granted in the U.S. for new, useful and non-obvious inventions for a period of 20 years from the filing date of a patent application.
I believe it was introduced less then five years ago, so I would imagine it has patent protection for at least another 12 - 14 years at least depending on the filing date.
rc
I believe it was introduced less then five years ago, so I would imagine it has patent protection for at least another 12 - 14 years at least depending on the filing date.
rc
VingThorr
Member
then is there any way for other manufacturers around those patents so that they could produce their own "flex-tip" type ammunition for use in lever-guns?
chevyforlife21
Member
you brought up a good point i thought the normal companies weren't making it cuse it is unnecessary maybe they will switch once the patent runs out. and what if they use another type of rubber instead of polymer would that be legal for Remington or Winchester to do under the hornady patent or is anything comparable to the lever evoulution void automatically cuse its close to it
LEVERevolution ammo exists for one reason; to give the "hunter" a half dozen (or more) shots to kill an animal. The idea of longer range and flatter trajectory could be done with bullets that were already in existence. You load one "pointy bullet" in the chamber and put just one in the mag tube like people have been doing for decades. A third cartridge can be quickly loaded in a lever-action after the first or second shot is taken; without lowering the weapon from the shoulder if necessary.
Of course if you need that many shots to take down an animal, IMO, you are taking shots outside your weapon's, or your, capability.
Of course if you need that many shots to take down an animal, IMO, you are taking shots outside your weapon's, or your, capability.
VingThorr
Member
WOW DWfan, way to derail the thread.
so leverguns are for people who need more than one shot? well then why don't the rest of dopes just hunt with AR-10s with 30 round mags, why a levergun? could be some people just plain like leverguns because they just plain like them. in the same way I might just plain like a 1955 GMC or Chevy Truck, knowing perfectly well that a 2010 ford could outperform it in every way imaginable. some fellers hunt with 10mm glocks, some use bows, some use single-shots, some ARs, some happen to like leverguns for some crazy reason, doesn't have to mean that they can't shoot for crap, it's just what suits their fancy.
I understand the handloading point, I handload myself. but this thread is about factory ammo, not handloaded ammo. factory ammo is for people who don't handload ammo. not everyone who hunts is a handloader, or a gun nut who feels the need to go out and buy the latest super turbo short remchester ultra magnum. some guys just have old leverguns laying around, and the prospect of being able to drop an antelope at 250 yards renders the need to buy the aforementioned remchester moot.
so leverguns are for people who need more than one shot? well then why don't the rest of dopes just hunt with AR-10s with 30 round mags, why a levergun? could be some people just plain like leverguns because they just plain like them. in the same way I might just plain like a 1955 GMC or Chevy Truck, knowing perfectly well that a 2010 ford could outperform it in every way imaginable. some fellers hunt with 10mm glocks, some use bows, some use single-shots, some ARs, some happen to like leverguns for some crazy reason, doesn't have to mean that they can't shoot for crap, it's just what suits their fancy.
I understand the handloading point, I handload myself. but this thread is about factory ammo, not handloaded ammo. factory ammo is for people who don't handload ammo. not everyone who hunts is a handloader, or a gun nut who feels the need to go out and buy the latest super turbo short remchester ultra magnum. some guys just have old leverguns laying around, and the prospect of being able to drop an antelope at 250 yards renders the need to buy the aforementioned remchester moot.
tango2echo
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Not all pattents are for 20 years, but in this case 20 is most likely correct. In order for another company to manufacture "flex tip" ammo, it would need to be "significantly different in form, use, or function" from the Hornaday stuff to receive it's own pattent. In this case not likely. Another option would be to buy production rights from Hornaday. Also not likely. I also believe the pattent in this case would be from the time marketed, since most companies apply for a "pending" pattent well before the product ever comes to market. I would say you are looking at atleast 2028 before you could market a like product.
VingThorr, from Hornady's own website...
"LEVERevolution is the most exciting thing to ever happen to lever gun ammunition. Hornady, the leader in ballistic technology, brings you an innovation in ammunition performance featuring state of the industry patented, FTX (Flex Tip eXpanding) bullets that are SAFE in your tubular magazine. Its higher ballistic coefficient delivers dramatically flatter trajectories for fantastic downrange energy increases and amazing bullet expansion at all ranges."
The very first thing mentioned is safety with more than one round in the magazine. If you only have one round in the mag tube, the safety factor is the same. So, the FTX's expressed purpose is to allow more than one round to be loaded into the mag tube.
Improved ballistics? Look at the ballistic coefficient of other Hornady bullets in the same weight range in .30 caliber....
160gr FTX: .330
150gr SST: .415
165gr SP-BT: .435
165gr SP-FB: .387
Although markedly better than FN bullets, the FTX doesn't compare with other "pointed-nose" bullets made by Hornady themselves. LEVERevolution ammo ballistics could probably be improved by replacing the bullet with one of those mentioned.
I mentioned nothing demeaning about the type of weapon or the people who use them; except if the person attempts what either the weapon or they simply don't have the ability to do. I addressed the ammo and it's reason for being. The reason for the Hornady LEVERevolution ammunition as stated by Hornady themselves, is exactly what I said. As far as "factory ammo" goes, there are folks like Reeds Ammo, who will happily load your brass with any bullet you wish and already offer loads with spire-point bullets for lever action calibers.
"LEVERevolution is the most exciting thing to ever happen to lever gun ammunition. Hornady, the leader in ballistic technology, brings you an innovation in ammunition performance featuring state of the industry patented, FTX (Flex Tip eXpanding) bullets that are SAFE in your tubular magazine. Its higher ballistic coefficient delivers dramatically flatter trajectories for fantastic downrange energy increases and amazing bullet expansion at all ranges."
The very first thing mentioned is safety with more than one round in the magazine. If you only have one round in the mag tube, the safety factor is the same. So, the FTX's expressed purpose is to allow more than one round to be loaded into the mag tube.
Improved ballistics? Look at the ballistic coefficient of other Hornady bullets in the same weight range in .30 caliber....
160gr FTX: .330
150gr SST: .415
165gr SP-BT: .435
165gr SP-FB: .387
Although markedly better than FN bullets, the FTX doesn't compare with other "pointed-nose" bullets made by Hornady themselves. LEVERevolution ammo ballistics could probably be improved by replacing the bullet with one of those mentioned.
I mentioned nothing demeaning about the type of weapon or the people who use them; except if the person attempts what either the weapon or they simply don't have the ability to do. I addressed the ammo and it's reason for being. The reason for the Hornady LEVERevolution ammunition as stated by Hornady themselves, is exactly what I said. As far as "factory ammo" goes, there are folks like Reeds Ammo, who will happily load your brass with any bullet you wish and already offer loads with spire-point bullets for lever action calibers.
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tango2echo
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DWfan, what the heck does anything you stated in your post have to do with the OP's question on the patents of the FTX bullets?
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VingThorr
Member
just curious, does the 20 years for new patents apply to new cartridges as well? say for example in 1925(?) Winchester releases the .270 Winchester, did Federal and Remington have to wait 20 years to offer their own .270 Winchester factory loads? Or do firearm/ammunition manufacturers wave this exclusive right to their patent in order to help popularize their new round? For instance I've noticed Remington is going to offer loads for the new .308 and .338 Marlin Express cartridges. Could Federal and Winchester do the same thing, or was some sort of legal deal struck between Hornady and Remington (Marlin's new big brother) to spit out more ammo to help promote the new Marlin rifles?
DWfan,
I see you're right in that you really only need one round smiling down the bore and another patiently waiting in the tube for hunting. I honestly never even thought of that. But just the idea of it makes my neck itch, as a former soldier, now a LEO, the idea of a magazine that isn't full doesn't sit well in the bowels for some reason. In fact I'd venture to say, when I drop some delicious beast in the canyons, I probably top off the magazine without thinking about it for no good reason whatsoever. lol
DWfan,
I see you're right in that you really only need one round smiling down the bore and another patiently waiting in the tube for hunting. I honestly never even thought of that. But just the idea of it makes my neck itch, as a former soldier, now a LEO, the idea of a magazine that isn't full doesn't sit well in the bowels for some reason. In fact I'd venture to say, when I drop some delicious beast in the canyons, I probably top off the magazine without thinking about it for no good reason whatsoever. lol
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tango2echo, my response has nothing at all to do with the first question the OP asked (about patent on the bullets). Why would you think it did? rcmodel already answered that question and I didn't have anything to add to that.
My post was in response to his second question and my opinion why some other manufactures won't jump on the "bandwagon" because they already produce bullets that are ballistically superior. Then there's Barnes...but that would confuse the whole thing.
My post was in response to his second question and my opinion why some other manufactures won't jump on the "bandwagon" because they already produce bullets that are ballistically superior. Then there's Barnes...but that would confuse the whole thing.
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Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Regardless of the ammunition, most states have laws governing the ammunition capacity of hunting firearms.
Frankly, your argument is utterly ridiculous. The entire point of the LEVERevolution ammunition is to allow a person the ability to fire a pointed spitzer-type bullet out of a lever action gun without the possibility of the rounds detonating in the ammunition tube.
It's common knowledge that pointed bullets fly through the air more efficiently and accurately than round-nosed bullets, so I fail to see how a new form of ammunition designed to allow a shooter to more accurately engage his intended target could possibly be a bad thing at all.
Frankly, your argument is utterly ridiculous. The entire point of the LEVERevolution ammunition is to allow a person the ability to fire a pointed spitzer-type bullet out of a lever action gun without the possibility of the rounds detonating in the ammunition tube.
It's common knowledge that pointed bullets fly through the air more efficiently and accurately than round-nosed bullets, so I fail to see how a new form of ammunition designed to allow a shooter to more accurately engage his intended target could possibly be a bad thing at all.
Quote from Justin:
"The entire point of the LEVERevolution ammunition is to allow a person the ability to fire a pointed spitzer-type bullet out of a lever action gun without the possibility of the rounds detonating in the ammunition tube."
You are absolutely 100% correct, Justin....and that's exactly what I've been saying. It is intended to allow more than one round to be carried in the mag tube.
Quote from Justin:
"It's common knowledge that pointed bullets fly through the air more efficiently and accurately than round-nosed bullets, so I fail to see how a new form of ammunition designed to allow a shooter to more accurately engage his intended target could possibly be a bad thing at all."
Absolutely true again. However, that option has always been available for lever-action shooters, with even more ballistically efficient bullets than the FTX, by simply loading 1+1 (one in chamber, one in mag tube).
"The entire point of the LEVERevolution ammunition is to allow a person the ability to fire a pointed spitzer-type bullet out of a lever action gun without the possibility of the rounds detonating in the ammunition tube."
You are absolutely 100% correct, Justin....and that's exactly what I've been saying. It is intended to allow more than one round to be carried in the mag tube.
Quote from Justin:
"It's common knowledge that pointed bullets fly through the air more efficiently and accurately than round-nosed bullets, so I fail to see how a new form of ammunition designed to allow a shooter to more accurately engage his intended target could possibly be a bad thing at all."
Absolutely true again. However, that option has always been available for lever-action shooters, with even more ballistically efficient bullets than the FTX, by simply loading 1+1 (one in chamber, one in mag tube).
You choose to carry your lever rifle with only two rounds that is fine. But do not chastise me or anyone else who chooses to legally carry the maximum number of rounds. Or did I just read this wrong:
To me it sounds as though you are implying that anyone that carries more than two rounds is either a bad hunter or just interested in killing and maiming an animal. Though the loads I intend to use this season are hard cast lead and have a muzzle velocity of 2000 fps for a 405gr bullet. If I carry more than two and I a bad hunter? Or have I just misunderstood your point?
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Yes, per the design of the firearm. I'm no expert on lever guns, but I'm given to understand that most of them are designed to allow one to load more than a single round into the magazine tube.
So, with the advent of the LEVERevolution rounds, one can now choose to load his magazine tube to capacity with rounds that are ballistically superior to round nose bullets.
I fail to understand how this is a problem at all.
I seriously doubt that many other manufacturers are scampering to take a chunk out of Hornady's LEVERevolution franchise considering that until very recently they couldn't make enough of existing products to keep on the shelves. The real market is in defense rounds for CCW pistols at this point--Hornady's done pretty well there as well.
It would be great to see similar ammo a bit cheaper than Hornady prices though.
On another note when did THR turn into a snarky attackfest. Come on guys and keep things Highroad.
It would be great to see similar ammo a bit cheaper than Hornady prices though.
On another note when did THR turn into a snarky attackfest. Come on guys and keep things Highroad.
I would ecourage everyone to go to Hornady's web site and look up the ballistic coefficient of a FTX .44 Mag, .45 Colt, and .357 Mag component bullet and compare it to the BC of a standard weight for caliber hunting bullet, like the XTP. (240gr, 250gr, 158gr/180gr, respectively)
Then run the ballistics for the claimed MV of the FTX loads, compared to a typical hunting load (or your favorite handload). Run a ballistics calculator to determine bullet drop and downrange energy at pistol caliber hunting ranges.
I was surprised. You might be too.
Then run the ballistics for the claimed MV of the FTX loads, compared to a typical hunting load (or your favorite handload). Run a ballistics calculator to determine bullet drop and downrange energy at pistol caliber hunting ranges.
I was surprised. You might be too.
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
chevy,
rubber is a polymer.
rubber is a polymer.
Up until now, bullets designed for lever guns with tubular mags were forced to be blunt tipped to prevent the mythical bullet to bullet discharge under recoil. the GUNS are disigned for multiple rounds to be carried.... If you have an issue with the design of the gun allowing for half a dozen misses (your shooting, not mine,) then blame winchester, marlin, puma, charles daily, and whoever else makes a lever gun or repeating gun for that matter. After all, why would you want more than one bullet in your gun?
These bullets are a new design to fit the GUN... it is a bullet designed for better down range performance... PERIOD. It is rediculous to say a new bullet design somehow justifies more shots... if you want to hunt with single shots and muzzle loaders go for it... otherwise look at yourself a bit differently in the mirror.
These bullets are a new design to fit the GUN... it is a bullet designed for better down range performance... PERIOD. It is rediculous to say a new bullet design somehow justifies more shots... if you want to hunt with single shots and muzzle loaders go for it... otherwise look at yourself a bit differently in the mirror.- Status
