Patterned some #4 buck out of my 870. Wasn't impressed....

[Dave McCracken]

Some folks that ought to know tell me that optimum spread is 5" at target.

Personally, I'd want a spread of less than 15" at a given distance. That gives me close to 25 yerds with my HD tools anda slug option after that.

 

[GunTech]

If you want tighter patterns with buckshot, you can port you barrel at the muzzle. Swearengen notes Army tests in "worlds fighting shotguns" that dtermined that ports or lingitudinal slots in the barrel near the muzzle reduce patern size. They postulated that gases exiting the muzzle were upsetting the shot cup of column, and porting the barrel bled of the gas before the shot left the gun.

Since #4 is typically recommended as a indoor load, and rooms are rarely more than 20-30 feet long, sound like an open pattern is what you want.

 

[Fred Fuller]

IMHO, shotguns excel as close-range defensive weapons because of two main factors: bore diameter and payload weight. Buckshot works like a prefragmented defensive round- on impact the pellets are free to follow individual paths, resulting in increased tissue damage. This has a long history of proven results in stopping soft skinned, lightly built creatures of all species up to about 300 pounds at close range.

Personally I don't care if a load of buckshot is bore diameter or larger when it impacts, I'm point-shooting with a shotgun anyway. By that I mean I am shooting at a specific point on the target, not at the target as a whole. I don't want an open pattern because open patterns increase the likelihood of missing with some of the pellets. Pellets that miss not only fail to damage the intended target but might cause collateral damage downrange, NOT what I want to have happen.

That's why I use a sheet of typing paper for a patterning target, and insist that my gun/load maintain a pattern that will stay inside those bounds at 25 yards. Turn sideways to a mirror and hold a sheet of paper up under your arm on that side, 8" end up. Note what portion of your anatomy that paper covers. And also note, that is about the smallest area of a fully exposed human target you are apt to get presented with, is when a person 'blades' their body toward you. How long does it take a person to go from standing in a full frontal presentation to rotating their body 90 degrees? If your target does that, as in the process of presenting a weapon at you, you will be presented with a target that suddenly shrinks to about 8" wide.

So I pattern on a target 8" X 11.5" at 25 yards. Do I have a room 75 feet long? No, but that makes no difference to me. The longest range I am apt to use buckshot is about 25 yards- further out than that, I'm going to slugs. But I want buckshot for close-range use, which for me is out to 25 yards or so.

Am I telling you that's what you have to do? Nope, not at all. I am only presenting the reasoning behind my own decisions. My reasons are based on my own training and experience.

You are 100% free to make up your own mind what works for you, and today's technology is such that you can pretty much attain whatever level of performance you desire for your particular gun and range. Determine what you want your gun and load to do, and seek to achieve that result. Get the best training you can manage, so that you understand more fully the defensive use of your shotgun- which is best described as 'a thinking person's weapon.'

And Stay Safe,

lpl/nc

 

[sacp81170a]

I'd love to try some #1's but they're hard to find in the stores I frequent.

Actually, try almost non-existent. I tried looking for the Federal #1 buffered load and can't find anything in #1 in a 12 ga. except for a Winchester load. Everything else seems to be in 16 ga. I've given up finding any more and I'm hoarding what #1's I have left. Haven't been to the range to do a test lately, but I'll sacrifice one box and let you know the results.

 

[rantingredneck]

The promised re-test and range report........

Well I went to the range today with one of my TFL buddies, bennnn.

I set up patterning sheets (backside of a scorekeeper rifle target) at 7/15/25 and shot them with the two loads in question from my OP: Remington Managed Recoil 00 Buck (8 pellets) and Remington 2 3/4" #4 Buck (27 pellets). These target sheets are larger than Lee's standard 8.5x11 sheet by a considerable bit. More like 14x21. Keep that in mind as you look at the pics.

I have to say my initial impression of the #4 load from my 870 was reinforced mightily today. First we'll look at my standard HD load (the managed recoil 00). I've patterned this load repeatedly and practice with it regularly. I would most certainly trust my life to it.

7 yds:

You can see to the right where the wad hit. Must have been tumbling and hit sideways. All 8 pellets accounted for COM

15 yds:

No wad print in this target, but again all 8 pellets accounted for and COM.

25 yds:

This one I have to apologize for as I pulled it (or rather pushed it since I'm a righty) off to the left a bit. I probably should have re-shot this one, but I've shot enough of this at 25 yds to be personally satisfied and this target is still demonstrative of the overall pattern. 7 of 8 pellets accounted for on the target paper, hole from 8th pellet found in wood 1.5 inches to left of edge of paper.

That load I would definitely trust my life to. This next one, not so much......

7 yds:

I have to say, if I wanted to really limit the useful range of my main HD weapon to 7 yds I wouldn't mind that pattern. It definitely would ruin an intruder's day.

15 yds:

This is where the load really starts to not look so good. Of the 27 pellets only 25 were on the paper (and it's a pretty big paper), where did the other two go?

25 yds:

MMMkay.......27 pellets and only 8 accounted for. Enough said for me. No dice on this load for HD from my 870.

Wonder how it shoots in my 835??????

 

[rantingredneck]

While we're at it, I'll post the targets that started this little internet odyssey...

And my belated response to ArchangelCD's post about pics:

My original targets from Tuesday.

15 yds, 8.5x11 target, Managed Recoil 00 buck (my standard HD load) 4 rounds, 32 pellets total all accounted for.

15 yds, 8.5x11 target, Remington #4 buck 16 pellets of 27 accounted for.

I used the same target for slug practice afterward, hence the really big holes.

I thought I would color code a version of it using MS Paint and post it to give you an idea of which rounds fell where:

Red = #4 buckshot
Black = Brenneke KO's
Green = Remington Sluggers
Yellow = Wads from Remington Sluggers

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Thank you for the targets, it makes things much clearer. Based on your tests I would say I might have to reconsider loading my shotgun with 00 Buck instead of #4 Buck for HD. Thank you... I guess I should have done a similar test before I went with #4 Buck.

 

[rantingredneck]

Make sure you pattern some loads from your shotgun. It may like #4 a lot better than mine does.

But you're welcome anyway.

 

[suemarkp]

Actually, try almost non-existent. I tried looking for the Federal #1 buffered load and can't find anything in #1 in a 12 ga. except for a Winchester load. Everything else seems to be in 16 ga. I've given up finding any more and I'm hoarding what #1's I have left.

Do you have any aversions to buying it online (two Winchesters which are buffered, a Remington, a Federal, Win in 2 3/4" and 3", Federal in 3.5"):
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/65037-8176-2454.html
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/65081-7783-2470.html
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/66067-7253-2470.html
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=285371&t=11082005
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=177824&t=11082005
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=293644&t=11082005
http://www.grafs.com/fc/product/145014

 

[bpisler]

If you are looking for tight groups from a
cylinder bore shotty give the fed premium
00 with the flitecontrol wad.I tried a box
today was was relly impressed by it.

At 10 yards from my mossberg 500A the
patterns were no larger than a silver
dollar,this is with a cylinder bore.

At 15 yards the patterns had opened up to
only 3 inches as measured with a ruler.
I'll have to try a few more boxes before i
switch the rem managed recoil 00 for
the Federal load.

I also fired a box of the rem managed recoil
00 at 10 and 15 yards and the results were
the same as always.7-8 inches at 10 yards
and 12 inches at 15 yards,all patterns were
well centered with no gaps.

I should note that the felt recoil was about
the same between these 2 loads.The Fed load
has 9 pellets of 00 compared to 8 for the rem
but the Rem has a MV of 1200 fps.

The Fed has a MV of 1145 but it does carry 1
more pellet,the MV's are the factory numbers
printed on each box