Patton

[jeffmack]

I read somewhere that the reason Patton did not carry a 1911 was that he once had a negligent discharge with a 1911. Can anyone on THR help me find a reputable source for this rumor?

 

[Lj1941]

Patton had his ivory handled revolvers very early in his career.He used them on some of Poncho Villia's thugs while on the expedition with Pershing. I doubt that he even had a 1911 in that time period.It is most likely what we call an "Urban Legend" in todays world.This is just my opinion after reading everything about Patton that I could get my hands
on.Besides,a 1911 wouldn't dare go off if Patton didn't want
it to!

 

[Tolkachi Robotnik]

Patton was high rank already when 1911 came out.

He was a horse man in the beginning. I never saw any pictures where he didn't have a white handled revolver. I would guess he was grandfathered in, and although he probably tried it I would guess he didn't feel the need to change.

In any event, it became part of his brand.

 

[45_auto]

Patton: A Genius For War, by Carlo D'Este, page 160. Happened when he was the senior officer in Sierra Blanca in 1915. Shot a hole in his pants leg when he was at dinner.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0060927623/ref=rdr_ext_tmb

 

[Tolkachi Robotnik]

Patton was an extremely good pistol shot.

Early in his career he competed and did well. He also had a temper and once threw a fit as he had a perfect score but one bullet not accounted for. He contended that the one bullet had went through one of the other bulls-eyes on his target, but to no avail.

I doubt if he could shoot a 1911 better than he could his revolvers, they were pretty familiar to him I am sure.

 

[Vonderek]

Not saying the D'Este account is false as I have no idea one way or the other but the entire page cited sounds kind of bizarre. How exactly does one wear a handgun in one's "trouser fly" and what kind of local custom is that? It sounds like Thunderwear/SmartCarry gone wrong. Or is the author referring to "Mexican carry" in the waistband?

 

[230RN]

^ I recall reading that his carry around gun was a .380.

 

[statelineblues]

IIRC, the Colt 1903 Pocket Pistol in .380 was issued as the "General Officer's Pistol" until the 1960s.

 

[HoosierQ]

There is a photo of WWII vintage of Patton, in full General Officer's Uniform including a helmet carrying a holstered Colt Woodsman. I've seen it on this forum but I haven't got a link for it.

 

[jmr40]

I found this old thread on "the firing line" that includes the story you asked about.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257436

I have no idea if true or not.

High ranking officers find it easier to carry non-traditional guns. That was especially true in the 1940's. As near as I can tell Patton just prefered his Colt SAA.

 

[Jim Watson]

Wiki says his AD with 1911 and transition to SAA was in 1915. Another site says his fancy SAA was shipped in 1916. His .357 was made in 1935, a very early Magnum.

He is pictured with a Colt Hammerless Pocket Model and a Remington Model 51.
I recall he was sometimes known to carry a Detective Special, which makes sense with his prior preference for a revolver.

 

[Dave Workman]

I believe the general was credited with observing that a semi-auto is a two-piece gun and without the magazine, it was virtually useless.

The revolver, however, requires only loose ammunition to function.

At least, it was something like that.

I believe he had a bad experience with the M1911 in WWI. The revolvers were a throwback to his cavalry days, when he went with Black Jack Pershing in pursuit of Pancho Villas outlaws. Or something like that.

 

[pendennis]

Early in his career he competed and did well. He also had a temper and once threw a fit as he had a perfect score but one bullet not accounted for. He contended that the one bullet had went through one of the other bulls-eyes on his target, but to no avail.

I doubt if he could shoot a 1911 better than he could his revolvers, they were pretty familiar to him I am sure.

George Patton competed in the 1912 Olympics, in Stockholm, Sweden, in the modern pentathlon. He used a Colt revolver, and the other competitors used service pistols such as the Luger P08 and some S&W target pistols. In the pistol matches, he was scored a zero, for allegedly missing the target entirely. However, all those on the range believed he had put two through the same hole. However, the judges would not be swayed, and his score was totaled with a clean miss. Lieutenant Patton exhibited great restraint, and accepted the judges' ruling with no emotional outburst.

At the end of World War II, General Patton revisited Stockholm, and actually shot a better score against his former competitors than he had in 1912. The Swedes had taken the top three places in 1912.

Today, there would be no question as to a clean miss, or two in the same hole. Backgrounds in the target are changed with each shot, eliminating the possibility of that type of error.

 

[Old Fuff]

In 1940 or '41 Life Magazine" had a cover that showed Gen. Patton in a tank with an ivory-handled 1911 .45 pistol in an S.D. Myers shoulder holster. So far as I know this is the only known picture of him with the standard service sidearm.

During World War Two he explained to a reporter that he carried the fancy Colt SAA as a badge-of-office. Anyone who saw it knew who and what he was. For serious work he depended on his S&W .357 Magnum, that he called his "killing gun." The only time I've noticed him carrying it was during the Battle of the Bulge when he was pictured carrying both the Smith & Wesson and Colt.

 

[hang fire]

Early in his career he competed and did well. He also had a temper and once threw a fit as he had a perfect score but one bullet not accounted for. He contended that the one bullet had went through one of the other bulls-eyes on his target, but to no avail.

I doubt if he could shoot a 1911 better than he could his revolvers, they were pretty familiar to him I am sure.

Those ivory handled 1873 SA army revolvers were to make Patton stand out for show.

 

[danoam]

I would say that Patton carried what he carried because he was Patton.

 

[Kleanbore]

Patton was high rank already when 1911 came out.

Patton was promoted to First Lieutenant in 1916, and to Captain in 1917.

Patton used a Single Action Army Colt in combat in Mexico in 1916. During the fight, he had to reload. I think I remember reading somewhere after that that Patton then realized that to rely upon one SAA was not a good idea. But that Registered Magnum was not available for another two decades.

There was a very good thread here in General Handguns recently in which the history of Government .45 revolver ammunition was discussed at length. One of our members mused that not only was the SAA militarily obsolete when the .38 Colt Army revolver was adopted, it is arguable that it was obsolete in when it was introduced in 1873.

The original Colt Paterson represented a great leap forward in cavalry sidearms when the Texas Rangers carried into battle the ones that the Texas Navy had procured; the Walker colt was better yet, and the 1860 Army, still better. The SAA was a vast improvement, but single loading and rod ejection were great disadvantages in a cavalry sidearm. I'm inclined to believe that Patton's SAA served primarily as functional jewelry.

The 1911 was originally intended as a cavalry sidearm also. The first .45 Colt automatic preceded the introduction of the Model T Ford.

 

[Old Fuff]

The 1911 was originally intended as a cavalry sidearm also.

During the period when Browning box-magazine pistols were introduce and developed (1900-1910) and the .45 in particular (1904-1910) the Cavalry Service was the only one that fought tooth & nail to prevent its adoption. In all of the trials where they participated negative reports resulted. To be specific, their ideal was Colt's .45 New Service revolver. Be that as it may, after the 1911 pistol was adopted they had to accept it, but not by choice. The other branches within the Army, Navy and Marine Corp offered no objections after the 1911 design was considered to be perfected.

This might (or might not) have colored Patton's early opinion of pistols.

 

[Cosmoline]

He contended that the one bullet had went through one of the other bulls-eyes on his target, but to no avail.

I am no fan of Patton, but I think he was probably correct. The Olympic officials were dealing with .22's from the other competitors apparently, and I find it unlikely that Patton had a clean miss as they alleged. If the score keepers aren't used to dealing with larger rounds, they might not recognize a double hole. And apparently they had no way of double checking this. So yes, he should have taken the medal.

 

[Outlaw Man]

Everyone knows Patton's favorite sidearm was Omar Bradley with an armored division.

 

[Kleanbore]

I had not known about the Cavalry Service's opposition to the 1911. I had a friend who is now deceased who served in the US Cavalry and who demonstrated firing and reloading the .45 Automatic on horseback to Herbert Hoover (commerce days, I think).

I have never fired a handgun from horseback, but I'm pretty sure I would prefer reloading a 1911 than a Colt New Service while riding.

Here is an interesting account of mounted cavalry use of the 1911 in combat in 1916.

I grew up watching people using the SAA on the silver screen and handling replicas and I later shot real ones, but I cannot imagine choosing one for service use after the New Service came out.

 

[Old Fuff]

The Cavalry had a number of nit-picks over handguns, pistols vs. revolvers, but a big (and reasonable) one was that the early pistols weren't safe if they were cocked and a trooper's horse started to buck and he had to reholster the pistol. They were responsible for both the grip safety and safety lock (manual safety) and didn't back off until they were incorporated into the design.

The New Service revolver they pointed out, had Colt's famous hammer block mechanical safety, and if necessary the revolver could be safely holsted while cocked - and wouldn't fire if the hammer fell unless the trigger was being held back.

 

[Kleanbore]

Yes, reasonable.

As a matter of fact, I only carry semi-autos with real safeties, and my riding days are in the past.

 

[mac66]

As was stated, Patton typically carried two revolvers because of his experience in Mexico. At that time he carried a SAA with 5 rounds, hammer down on an empty chamber which was the custom for safety reasons. He killed a couple of banditos but ran out of ammo, the SAA was slow to reload. As is sometimes said, the fastest reload is a second pistol.

He did occasionally carry a 1911 as was also noted. The General Officers pistol that was issued was the Colt 1903 Hammerless in .32 auto, not .380. Patton called his .32 his "social pistol". He also did own and carry a 1903 in .380 and owned and carried a Colt snubby in 38 spl. as well.

 

[herrwalther]

If I can find my copy of Patton's Principles, the author (who was the S-4 under Patton) went over what Patton liked to carry from stars 2-4.