Pax Americana (long rant)

[JoshM]

Agricola

on the subject of the thread, you are no different in terms of hegemon than we were. it was thought that we were doing things for raising the standard of the world, improving life etc etc. the problem was that, like yourselves, the only people that thought this were the residents of the UK (and even then not all of them).

There are massive differences between the United States and the UK in regards to "hegemonic practices". Primarily because the U.S. has a strong isolationist bent.
While the U.S. may be the hyper power, as a Commonwealth citizen, it's not the picture of GW Bush that hangs in my local Court house.

Most people who hate America do so for a reason, and that reason is almost always clear and justfied.

Hatred is virtually never "clear and justified". It's normally blind and all-consuming.

 

[agricola]

monkeyleg,

that "paki-bashing" statement is utter nonsense. you may as well use a smiliar example of the Klan to show that the US is a fundamentally racist state which murders all its non-white citizens.

oh and with regard to your last statement, please dont patronize me.

 

[fallingblock]

Well, Agricola....

I've certainly met a lot of Brit expats here in Australia who'll vouch for the failure of the U.K.s 'assimilation' of a lot of non-British folks.
What is it that the U.K. is doing so poorly?
Perhaps some mistaken ideas of altruistic internationalism?

Nice job in Iraq, though

 

[Al Norris]

oh and with regard to your last statement, please dont patronize me.

Once in a while people, by their own demeanor, deserve what they get from others. It's all in the presentation!

Having said that, many, if not most of us here, understand and acknowlege the faults of US policy; witness the disputes on just this board over the Iraq War!

The world, as a whole, berated the US for not joining in sooner during WWI and again during WWII. Since then, the US has had a very proactive foreign relations stance. And now the world wishes the US had gone back to sleep. Be damned carefull of what you ask, Agricola, you just may get it.

 

[Monkeyleg]

Agricola, my point was not to say that racism does not exist in the US. It most certainly does. My point was to suggest that the US is more accomodating to immigrants than are other nations, including the UK, and those who come here do so not because of a hatred for the US that you describe, but for a love of freedom.

A case in point: following the fall of the Soviet Union, Germany was inundated with immigrants from former Eastern Bloc countries. At first they were welcomed, then the German government locked the gates. The US has had similar situations involving Cubans, Haitians, Vietnamese, Irish and other immigrant groups over the last 100-odd years. Our response was quite different.

Also, I wasn't trying to patronize you with my closing remark; I was being genuine. If you wish, I won't say anything nice to you in the future.

 

[Drjones]

Hatred is virtually never "clear and justified". It's normally blind and all-consuming.

Even when one has learned how liberals are the most disgusting, parasitic forms of filth on the planet?

I actually used to be sorta kinda liberal in some views of mine.

As I've matured, I've become more conservative.

And I have learned how filthy dirty disgusting liberals are and how thoroughly deserving they are of hatred.

Isn't that "clear and justified"?

 

[tyme]

http://www.aei.org/events/eventID.273/transcript.asp

 

[grampster]

drjones: I have not come lately to my belief in and love for America, nor my understanding of our unique postion in history. It's just that I was rambling a bit in my original post regarding my thoughts about what I had been reading lately on THR re Iraq etc.

Faustulus: America is nothing like Rome. Rome was an empire that constantly expanded its borders and ruled the lands they conquered with local Roman appointees, directed by Ceasar. America has never done that except in the creation of our 50 states. In that regard if you are saying that present day America is the same as Rome, well I guess there are some minor parallels that might remotely seem to resemble Rome, especially with the Federal Government overstepping it's bounds regarding the way it deals with states and the dispensing of tax dollars and the like.
(a state may not get its federal road tax money unless they enact draconian uneccessary air pollution standards, for example.)

Satellite: Regarding your statistics about our economy. I would agree peripheraly with some of your comments only in the sense that over time the ways of Man ebb and flow. Things change. But it America we have a tendency to put things right after a time. As a matter of fact the middle class in America is larger than at any time in history and the lower or underclass has elevated itself into the middle class and is smaller than ever. Is their corruption? Show me a country where their is none! Methinks you are a tad too idealistic. I am guilty of that from time to time so I am not the pot calling the kettle black in your instance.

Gordon Funk: As for your comment that America is nothing special. My only reply to that would be is that you must have been asleep most of your life, never read a history book, or are a product of the California Public School System, or all of the above.

Monkeyleg: Your comments about immigrants hits the nail truly and squarely on the head! We are a nation of immigrants and they all came here because of what we represent. They took the time to find out and when they did they beat feet to our shores. I don't wonder why and you surely don't either.

I would also like to ask for forgiveness for calling the title of this thread, Pax Americana. I did not mean it in the context of Empire America. It just sounded good and frankly looked good too. America has never had aspirations of Empire, nor do I believe we do now. I just think a lot of people have forgotten what a real leader looks, talks, and acts like. Love him or hate him, GW is a leader.

Thanks to all of your for your thoughtful responses to my maunderings. Keep 'em comin'....Even those of you who I wonder about and probably always will disagree with. I will however ponder what I have read and value dissenting opinion if for no other reason that it reinforces my beliefs.

Grampster

 

[grampster]

drjones: I have not come lately to my belief in and love for America, nor my understanding of our unique postion in history. It's just that I was rambling a bit in my original post regarding my thoughts about what I had been reading lately on THR re Iraq etc.

Faustulus: America is nothing like Rome. Rome was an empire that constantly expanded its borders and ruled the lands they conquered with local Roman appointees, directed by Ceasar. America has never done that except in the creation of our 50 states. In that regard if you are saying that present day America is the same as Rome, well I guess there are some minor parallels that might remotely seem to resemble Rome, especially with the Federal Government overstepping it's bounds regarding the way it deals with states and the dispensing of tax dollars and the like.
(a state may not get its federal road tax money unless they enact draconian uneccessary air pollution standards, for example.)

Satellite: Regarding your statistics about our economy. I would agree peripheraly with some of your comments only in the sense that over time the ways of Man ebb and flow. Things change. But it America we have a tendency to put things right after a time. As a matter of fact the middle class in America is larger than at any time in history and the lower or underclass has elevated itself into the middle class and is smaller than ever. Is their corruption? Show me a country where their is none! Methinks you are a tad too idealistic. I am guilty of that from time to time so I am not the pot calling the kettle black in your instance.

Gordon Funk: As for your comment that America is nothing special. My only reply to that would be is that you must have been asleep most of your life, never read a history book, or are a product of the California Public School System, or all of the above.

Monkeyleg: Your comments about immigrants hits the nail truly and squarely on the head! We are a nation of immigrants and they all came here because of what we represent. They took the time to find out and when they did they beat feet to our shores. I don't wonder why and you surely don't either.

I would also like to ask for forgiveness for calling the title of this thread, Pax Americana. I did not mean it in the context of Empire America. It just sounded good and frankly looked good too. America has never had aspirations of Empire, nor do I believe we do now. I just think a lot of people have forgotten what a real leader looks, talks, and acts like. Love him or hate him, GW is a leader.

Thanks to all of your for your thoughtful responses to my maunderings. Keep 'em comin'....Even those of you who I wonder about and probably always will disagree with. I will however ponder what I have read and value dissenting opinion if for no other reason that it reinforces my beliefs.

Grampster

 

[JoshM]

DrJones

Hate is powerful stuff. Hatred brings alot of baggage with it which only serves to distort and lessen any possiblity of understanding the enemy.

For example, I just don't understand how elements of Indonesian Moslem society can justify their hatred for the United States and its War in Iraq on religious terms. As the Hussein regime seems to use Islam simply as a convenient political rally cry and cover.

Ultimately alot of the "hatred" of Jihadists and their fellow travellers is just sound and fury over their inability too do anything practical.

 

[fallingblock]

you are right there, Josh....

Hatred can provide both a blindfold and a projection for those who surrender to its call.

I just returned from a visit to the South Island (Christchurch) after an absence of eight years. Several family and friends amazed me with their seething hatred of the U.S. action in Iraq and of "W' in particular. When my sister-in-law (a pacifist from way back) asked me if I thought there would be more terrorist attacks on the U.S. as a result of the Iraq action and I replied in the negative, she exclaimed; "I hope there are!".

Even Helen Clark seemed to be surfing a wave of anti-American sentiment...which eventually let her down rather abruptly.

Most of these people are not simply ignorant blissninnies, so from where does this hatred arise, and why from such normally laid-back folks as Kiwis?

 

[Vladimir Berkov]

Every country the US has had to fight has been given back to the citizens of that country to run as they saw fit.

Not exactly, you should have said:

"Every country the US has fought has been given back to the citizens we saw as fit to run that country."


A small grammatical difference, but a great one in meaning.

 

[Leaky Waders]

Hi....I'd just like to reply to the following...

"America is nothing special."

*Who put men on the moon?

*Who invented rock and roll, blue jeans, country and western?

*Who saved Europe from Nazi and Stalin domination...and didn't place puppet governments or empirical governors afterwards?

*Who defeated Japan after being hit w/ a first strike...and left the same emperor in place, replaced the militants, and rebuilt the nation with a growing successful economy?

*Who helped the Brits drive the Argentinians form the Falklands?

*Who is defining the Art of Medicine for the world? Who invests countless dollars to activate potable water in third world countries and vaccinate children?

*Who's citizen's freely give their taxes so that other countries may write off their burdens?

*Who permits every citizen to become educated, get a job, speak their mind without threat of torture or death?

*Where can you voice your opinion against your elected leader and not be targeted by the leader?

*Where can you go to church, tabernacle, or mosque and not be assaulted w/ ideology of blowing yourself up to become part of some holy war, jihad, or other freedom movement?

*Where can you marry persons of same sex or different race, and not be shunned by society as a whole?

*Where can you be a "____ citizen" without even speaking a lick of the native language? For example, someone who speaks fluent chinese, and becomes and American...is now an American regardless of speaking ability, education, intellect, or language.

*Who explores the deep sea w/ submersibles, safely uses nuclear power, provides the majority of air transportation for the world, and has created many of the computer breakthroughs?

*Who defeated the barbary pirates after several Jeffersonian financial gifts to open the mediterranean for safe shipping....without creating a puppet empire?

*Who liberated the philippines...and returned it to their people?

*Who lets territories decide for themselves if they would prefer to join us or not? (Guam and Puerto Rico)

I would say....from my biased point of view as an eagle boy scout and current active duty naval officer that America is not and empire exporting world domination. It is a nation of the people for the people and by the people who have defended themselves during times of crisis and have been benevolent victors. Who have liberties for all citizens and equivalent educational opportunites. Who is active in world, cultural, scientific endeavors when not defending the interests of it's peoples.

For persons who bash America....just answer this....What would the world be like w/o America? A British empire? A Nazi empire? A Stalinist empire?

If America is so bad....then simply leave. If it burdens so many to enjoy the liberties that your fellow citizens have died for...then that's too big a burdon....enjoy your new found liberites in France, Cuba, Germany, Russia, Haiti, Argentina..etc. Relish your new fatherlands economy and goods. Enjoy the acceptance of the people as you can't speak their language or know the intricacies of their table manners. Feel free to shed your red white and blue and become a new "____ citizen," from my travels, I think you'd return home lamenting what you have forfeited.

Thanks for reading,
-L. W.

As for the title of the thread Pax America...latin for Peace of the Americans...we have not been at peace in many years...but as a country we strive to make the world better. Presidents are not elected for their ideologies of evil...the are elected for self-actualization and ideas of bettering tommorrow. None are evil. Our American 'dictator' FDR changed America and the World for the better. I guess he was our Augustus....fortunatley we haven't had a Nero of Caligula.

 

[JohnBT]

Jazz. Don't forget we invented jazz. And baseball.

The recent immigrants in my immediate area aren't leaving. They might be concerned about family back home, but they like America. These are people I see nearly every day and talk to frequently. The realty guy is from Lebanon, the video store owner came from Egypt, the market owners are from Iran, and the Chinese Restaurant owners are from China.

They all appear to realize that doing the right thing isn't always easy.

John

P.S. - Then there's the college professor across the street with her No War sign. She's in Moscow for 2 weeks, so she doesn't count. I sort of wish she'd stayed in Cuba when she went last year.

P.P.S. - "Most of these people are not simply ignorant blissninnies, so from where does this hatred arise, and why from such normally laid-back folks as Kiwis?"

I certainly don't know, I guess you'll have to ask them. Your sister-in-law, the pseudo-pacifist, appears to be a raging hypocrite if she's wishing violence on others.

 

[Drjones]

Leaky:

Your post gave me chills.

Thank you for posting that.

Welcome to The High Road, and do stick around!

 

[Gordon Fink]

America Nothing Special?

For those who called me on America being “nothing special,†if you reread my post, you will see that I wrote that we (the current generations of Americans or of any other people, for that matter) are nothing special in history. I was not referring to American culture specifically, though the idea does hold true. The mighty republics and empires (and some not so mighty) that have gone before the U.S.A. also made great technological, cultural, political, and military accomplishments. The most remarkable thing about the many American achievements is that they have been made by an unusually heterogeneous population.

None of this, however, changes the fact that all empires eventually fall, usually in a messy, unpleasant fashion. An American empire will ultimately suffer this same fate, as the powers that be become ever more tyrannical in order to maintain that power. The only way to avoid this is to remain a republic—one that leads more by example than by force.

Some have mentioned ancient Rome as an example of a failed empire and been derided for the comparison. However, in its latter days, Rome turned the administration and defense of the conquered “barbarians†over to the trusted among the barbarians. Not surprisingly, these same foederati ultimately turned on the Romans. It seems the U.S. has jumped right to this stage, installing puppet regimes in places such as Afghanistan and Iraq. Without long-term occupation in these places, America’s native confederates will eventually turn or fall themselves.

~G. Fink

 

[faustulus]

1. I love America
2. America isn't perfect.
3. Because I love it I will try to change the things I don' t like.
4. If your religious or political views can be boiled down to a t-shirt or bumper sticker, you haven't thought them through well enough.

Who saved Europe from Nazi and Stalin domination...and didn't place puppet governments or empirical governors afterwards?

Who set up puppet governments in Central and South America as well as Iran.

Who helped the Brits drive the Argentinians form the Falklands?

Who sold Argentina suppiles and gave them the money to pay for it during the same war?

Who's citizen's freely give their taxes so that other countries may write off their burdens?

Who here gets there check and the money has already been TAKEN?

Who permits every citizen to become educated, get a job, speak their mind without threat of torture or death?

Who can be called a traitor for disagreeing with the countries policies?

Where can you marry persons of same sex or different race, and not be shunned by society as a whole?

Yeah where?

fortunatley we haven't had a Nero of Caligula.

See: Nixon.

There is a thin line between patriotism and nationalism.

 

[Leaky Waders]

Drjones - thank you for the reply....

Faustulus....argh I wasn't even going to reply...trying to discuss politics over the net w/o voice inflection is kind of hard. And quipping little pieces of text is so...tedious. Anyways...here goes...

America doesn't install 'puppet governments' - this is merely one of the bumper stickers/t-shirt quotes that many have acquired to help convince themselves that we are trying to dominate the world. The govenerments that we build/support after the fall of an opposing government doesn't have to agree with the whole Americana concept...see present day France, Germany, Puerto Rico, Russia etc...however; governments that threaten ours may eventually find themselves replaced via military action if it baits the USA into war.

I'd recommend that you study Italy and Germany during the WW2 era to see how fascist governments truly pulled the strings of puppet governments.


Americans are taxxed by representation - consult the Boston Tea Party to see what happens when Americans are not taxxed with their input. Many persons taxes arent removed from their checks - that is why April 15th is so magical.


So let me get this right....Nixon burned Washington to make space for some Republican buildings and blamed it on the Christians, murdered those generals who opposed him, had massive orgies w/ congressional wives, left his whole estate to his horse, left the white house after being killed by the Praetorin guard thus ending the Nixon-Claudian line? Wow Plutarch and Suetonius must be pretty amazed by an elected officials total corruption...not to mention Gerald Ford..being left out of all the fun and all.

Just one uneducated Nationalist's view,

-LW

 

[faustulus]

Since we seem to want to drag up that silly history thing.

See Manuel Noregia-- who put him into power? Can we say C-I-A?
how about the Shaw of Iran? I am not saying no one else has put up puppet governments, I am just saying we are not as clean as we would like to think. I won't even get into pre-Castro Cuba. And governments that the Soviets put up also and a few run-ins with Moscow, see 1968. And no they don't have to agree with American concept but I don't recall putting to many communist dictators in power.

If you think the Boston Tee Party was about taxation without representation we have a whole other problem, one I bet that was perpetuated by a public school. Funny though my check still has money taken out each month, can't vouch for everyone though.

Nixon: Watergate, Laos, Alger Hiss, Checkers, the Whitehouse Speical Investigations Unit, CREEP. Now I think he only ordered the slaughter of about 10,000 civilians during his bombing campaigns, and no he didn't to many orgies, that was left to Jack, He didn't leave his estate to a horse but he did leave the country to Ford -- you decide which is better, oh yeah the country just about tore itself apart. Nixon did destroy a great deal of trust the American Public had for the office of president.

My point was that America is not perfect, and simply accepting what is wrong and saying it is ok because it is my country is stupid. The spirit of America demands that we continue to try building that 'shinning city on the hill' It is good to remember all the great things this country has to offer, but it is also important to remember this is a work in progress. We cannot stop trying to build a better world.

 

[Leaky Waders]

Faustulus....while I agree to disagree on most of our conversation...I think you summed it up pretty well...

"It is good to remember all the great things this country has to offer, but it is also important to remember this is a work in progress. We cannot stop trying to build a better world."

v/r,

-L.W.

PS I like your Sam Colt equalizer sig...