Perceived Recoil: Doubles v/s Pumps

[1894]

Lately I've had the opportunity to shoot a few different shotguns at some casual clays:

Browing Citori 30" ported barrels
Fox Model B (SXS cira 1950)
Winchester Pump 26"
Mossberg Pump 26"

I listed them in order of how they feel to me for perceived recoil from softest to hardest. The Browning is a no brainer. It's heaviest and has the porting. The Fox seems like the lightest, however. No, I haven't weighed them; nor have I checked online for their weight. The difference in recoil (again for me) is significant between the Fox and the pumps.

I'm not knocking any of these guns. I am curious as to what is going on here. I don't know the chokes on any save the Browning which, for all intents and purposes, is out of this discussion. Any ideas?

Also, where might I expect a semi along the lines of an 11-87 with a 26" barrel fall into the list?

Thanks!

1894

 

[Milkmaster]

Not knowing which loads you are firing, and not knowing the exact setup or fit you have, the list still makes sense to me. Heaviest to lightest is my first impression.

Things like comb drop can affect the felt recoil too.


The Winchester pump has an aluminum receiver, is light and will stomp your shoulder pretty good. I bet if you inserted an 870 pump that is a little heavier in there, the recoil would be right in the middle of the list.

Nice assortment of shotguns you have there!

 

[1894]

Sorry - we're shooting target loads. 2¾" 7½ shot.

None of the shotguns are mine. But I am looking for something I can afford hence, the question. Since you mentioned fit - and got me thinking - they're also listed in order of how comfortable they are when they come up. Meaning all I have to do with the Browning is put it to my shoulder and point it at the clay. The farther down the list you get, the more I have to think about what I'm doing.

I don't know anything about how to make a shotgun fit - just that it seems the ones that do are the ones I'll never be able to afford...

 

[ATLDave]

I've never shot a pump that I enjoyed, partially because of the recoil. Semi-autos (gas operated, not inertia) are generally though to be even softer-shooting than db's, and can be had for prices between the O/U's and the pumps, so that may be an answer.

 

[Beagle-zebub]

That's weird, because I always perceived O/Us to kick harder than 870s, as did the guru I learned skeet from. Plus, you would think that a pump would break the recoil impulse up by having the forearm/bolt unit get stopped by your shoulder at a different time than the rest of your gun.

EDIT: Isn't that supposed to be how a pump shotgun works? I was told that was why Winchester pumps tend to eject magnum loads without you contributing any pumping force. I'm watching slow-mo videos of shotguns on the internet, though, and I ain't seein' it.

I would bet fitment is the most important, though.

 

[jmr40]

Put them on a set of postal scales. If you reverse the Mossberg and Winchester you will have them listed in order from heaviest to lightest.

Weight is important, but so is stock fit. The surface area of the butt can matter. Guns with a larger surface spread out the recoil over more of your shoulder than smaller butt plates.

A Remington 11-87 is a heavy pig of a gun, unless you get one with a light contour barrel. That along with the gas operated action means it is one of the lighter recoiling guns out there. If you want a soft shooting gun, you will like the 11-87.

 

[oneounceload]

Sounds like the Browning FITS you better than the rest. There are two recoils - actual (free), and perceived (kick).

Actual is a simple math equation.
Perceived is all about fit. BTW, porting does nothing for recoil reduction. A gas action will lessen perceived recoil as the gas helps elongate the recoil pulse. A good recoil pad will help soften the pulse as well. Neither will reduce the actual recoil - heavy gun weight does that, but fit, gas action and good recoil pad will lessen the kick you experience

 

[Milkmaster]

Here is a nice short video giving a brief explanation of shotgun fit. I have posted it before, but seems to apply here again for some.

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheNSSF#p/u/1/jLLnGM3DXE0

 

[1894]

Milk, Thanks for the video. Very helpful.

Question to those who have actually done it: If I get an 870 *fit to me* where might it fall in the list? I'd rather learn to run a pump for a lot of reasons. They can all be found in posts/threads from Dave McC.

Thanks again,

1894

 

[1894]

1oz: Can you elaborate more on what porting does / does not do? My uneducated guess led me to believe that porting *should* reduce perceived recoil by reducing the gasses forced back into my shoulder. I get the muzzle flip thing. I know. Shoulda paid more attention to trig...

 

[oneounceload]

for fun clays a pump will be fine - but if you are talking about getting into clay target shooting on a serious note, especially skeet, 5-stand, sporting, or any other game with a pair of targets, a pup is a hindrance compared to a semi or O/U

 

[oneounceload]

Porting can reduce muzzle rise - on high pressure rounds like heavy rifle cartridges, or high pressure big bore pistol rounds like a 500 S&W - BUT shotguns are low pressure, maybe 8500 for 12 gauge as compared to 55-65,000 for rifle.

As to recoil, the reaction has started and is almost finished by the time the shot is leaving the barrel. Actual recoil is a simple math equation - mass of the payload, velocity of the payload and weight of the gun - so porting is not a factor.

Of all of the major target gun makers in the shotgun arena - Beretta, Browning, Blaser, Caesar Guerini, A. Zoli, Perazzi, Kreighoff, Rizzini, Fabbri, Piotti, Bertuzzi, Kolar, etc......ONLY Browning ports their barrels.

It was a nice marketing gimmick back when it first started - but ask yourself this - Browning does not port their field guns - those guns are lighter than their target guns and are typically shooting heavier loads - IF porting did reduce recoil or muzzle rise, you would think they would do it on those models........but they don't

 

[1894]

I am sooooooo far from serious competition. I just want to have some fun - with my own gun. Half the time we're throwing clays like frisbees. When it gets serious, we break out the hand throwers. It's more me wanting to learn wth I'm supposed to be doing than having the perfect hardware. Pumps are cheaper, have a simpler MOA, and I'm not afraid of messing w/ one to make it point where I'm looking.

 

[MCgunner]

Recoil, or perceived recoil between the two would be the same if both guns fit properly and weigh the same and you're shooting the same loads in 'em. I, too, like my gas auto. My 20 gauge double is light, has a good kick to it as 20 gauges go, but it ain't anything I can't handle. I fired about 5 boxes out of it opening weekend of dove season and my shoulder felt no worse than 21 rounds out of my nine pound H&R 10 gauge one goose hunt...er, actually, it wasn't as bad.

I find that FIT makes all the difference, though, in perceived recoil. Before I was wise to this, I had some mal-fitting guns that would beat the tar out of me. I'm in to shimming stocks now days.

 

[1894]

Ok. I'm convinced about the porting. I've only even heard about 7 of the makers you referenced... So much to learn! Thanks!

 

[oneounceload]

McGunner is right - FIT has everything to do with perceived recoil - as does a good recoil pad and the action type - a true gas action (NOT the inertia) will also help in reducing the perceived recoil by elongating the recoil pulse over several milliseconds. While it doesn't sound like much, it turns the actual recoil into a 'push' from a more harsh 'thwack' to your shoulder

 

[oneounceload]

Glad you're starting and doing it in a fun (and hopefully SAFE) way. When you want to start to test your skills, find a local gun club - not the range, but the trap/skeet type of club. Explain your newness, have folks show you the ropes and then jump in and have fun. it can become very addicting. While you will meet folks with 15K guns, realize that you do not need one to compete, even on a serious level. For trap single, a pump is not a handicap as you shoot at one target at a time. However, when you step over to the skeet, 5-stand or sporting clays areas - where pairs in the air are the norm - you'll see that a pump may be a hindrance as you pull your gun off the target line while working that pump. Don't worry, it just gives you another excuse to get another gun!

Have fun and welcome to the FUN side of owning a shotgun

 

[1894]

It's a tailgate thing. We're safe. The closest tree line is 300 yards. But we don't shoot that way. We can't even measure how far it is to the tree line in the direction we shoot. Every one of us can say at any time, "Hey." or, "Hold up." and we all stop. None of us are above reproach.

Ironically, I have to pass the local club on the way to where we shoot. But, this way, I only pay for shells and clays... Not that I don't want to go, but I also don't want to embarrass myself... Also, I have yet to get my own gun. When I lose, I wanna do it my way. I'm ok with that.

I've shot all kinds of paper. Never had this much fun. I don't know if it's b/c the targets move, or if it's that they explode when you hit 'em. Dunno. Learning How - from guys like you. Thanks!