Pics of FTE...totally jammed...send back to factory???

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Pointman1776

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Thanks in advance for your help...I'm completely stumped as are all my shooting buds and RSO's. What do you think is happening? And how do I keep it from happening ever again?

If I read 1911Tuner's 1911 Clinic post correctly, this is called an "empty round stovepipe" with a "crunch", but I'm unclear as to the procedure to fix. Maybe I send it back to the factory as a warranty RMA? Or take it down the street to Kings? Will this cause damage to the frame? (The slide is REALLY tight and is difficult to attempt manipulate the 3/8"-1/2" inch of travel between slide-lock and the jammed case. The last time this happened, it took a pair of tin snips to cut the case wall from the top before the cartridge could be extricated.

See additional information below the pictures.

K-TMII_FTF_jam_01.jpg
K-TMII_FTF_jam_02.jpg
K-TMII_FTF_jam_03.jpg
K-TMII_FTF_jam_04.jpg

This particular pistol has just over 6000 rounds and is six months old. It has served me faithfully and nearly flawlessly for thousands of rounds and countless USPSA matches and range sessions. But lately, last two months or so, this is starting to happen almost every 50 rounds or so. Disturbing and troubling to me.

Context:
Pistol and mags were just cleaned...occurred at round 103 after the cleaning; yes, the mag springs were inserted correctly.
Always happens on the last round in the mag.
Happens slow-fire or rapid-fire.
Happens to both my Wilson 47D's and Chip McCormicks...doesn't seem to matter, and it's not just one mag...it's happens to just about all of them.
Mags are fairly new...only about 600 rounds through each of them.
Happens regardless of ammunition used: Win USA45A, UMC L45AP1, UMC L45AP4, Fed AE45A, or Fed Indy 5260.

This particular instance occured with UMC L45AP1 185gr FMJ-FN with 1015fps and 423 ft-lbs. of energy at the muzzle and has a PF of 188, so it's not an underpowered light target load (I use this ammo to practice recoil and muzzle flip management). Magazine is Wilson 47D 8 rounder. Range session was a slow-fire (1 shot per second) practice session before an USPSA match the next day.

Appears as though the extractor is engaging the case rim, pulling it back as the slide travels rearward. Then the cartridge begins to dip butt-end first back down into the magazine by pushing the follower back down? (Wilson and McCormick springs too soft to keep the follower up at the top?) Then as the cartridge becomes stuck into the lips of the magazine, the cartridge angles upward and the extractor hook slips off the rim. The momentum of the slide keeps the slide travelling rearward and slams the ejection port cut-out into the cartridge which dents the walls of the cartridge and jams the cartridge even deeper into the magazine lips. Note that the mag lips were straight and properly aligned prior to the jam...the bulge in the mag lips is a direct result of the FTE jam.

Thanks for your help in trying to fix this problem!
 
Crunch

Howdy Pointman,

Yours is an extractor problem. The mechanics of the event are fairly simple.
The side tension on the rim isn't sufficient to hold the case on the breechface, but the hook has a very good bite on the rim. The case falls
downward and contacts the magazine follower so it can't lock the slide...
or in your pistol...actually tries to stuff the empty case back in the magazine. The slide doesn't lock and tries to return to battery. The empty case is in the magazine at an angle, and the slide rams it into the barrel hood.

This happens on the last round because of the flat follower not offering the convex surface of another round in the magazine that prevents the empty case from falling too far below the breechface centerline. Prior to the last round, the only thing that you may notice is erratic ejection...and maybe not even that.

Unfortunately, the fix is a little more complicated with an external extractor.
With an internal design, this glitch is caused by either the extractor clocking
in its bore, the hook is located a little too far to the right...or the extractor just doesn't have enough tension, though more tension alone rarely cures the problem completely.

A round-topped magazine follower will help a lot, but may not prevent it every time...and will be no more than a band-aid fix for the real issue.
A fresh extractor spring will probably fix it, but only until the spring starts to weaken with use. The only real cure is to machine the slide to set the extractor closer to the breechface centerline by a few thousandths and install a new spring. Whether this will be done will probably be a matter of insisting on it and hoping that they will listen. With an internal extractor, it's a five-minute fix with a mill file. With an external, it requires a machining operation and a machinist who can hold a close tolerance with a mill...AND
one who can use a dial indicator so that the work surface is set dead flat.

Note that if your gun is push-feeding, the problem will return sooner due to the extractor hook being forced to snap over the rim and overworking the spring. It will most often do this with a smooth-topped follower and/or a
soft mag spring. A heavy recoil spring will also contribute to the occurence. You'll just have to trust me on this one...I ain't gonna get into another fight over the dimple. :p

Luck!

Tuner
 
Pointman, if it were any other Kimber other than the Team Match, I would say get one of the new design extractors from Kimber...but....the Team Match external is a bit different than the newer ones. It has always worked! If I were you, I'd make sure the extractor channel is clean. There is a spring in there and if gunk gets there, it prevents the spring from doing it's job. Take the plug out of the back, pull the spring and plunger out and clean it and the channel. You may have to have a friend standing by with an extra set of hands to get the spring and plug back in at the same time you are keeping the FP safety plunger in, the FP pushed in, and sliding the FP stop plate up.
 
re:

Kruzr bein' the resident Kimber man, he may have provided you with the fix...
(Thanks Kruz!)...but I'd call Kimber to see if they'll send a new spring just in case.

Sistema's suggestion works for a pistol equipped with an internal extractor, but not for an external. Good call Sistema...wrong design though. Just wanted to make that clear before ya order one and find out it won't work.
(I've known that to happen twice.)

No bones about magazines. In any given pistol straight out of the box, I like 7-round Metalform magazines with standard followers complete with the little dimple on top and Wolff 11-pound springs. If you have to have an 8-round magazine, McCormick Powermags are about the best of the breed in my experience, though they don't always deliver the goods in all pistols straight out of the package. The standard 7-round magazine with a good spring will provide the best chance in any given pistol that you try it in.

The main thing to remember is...Don't overspring the gun. 16 pounds in a 5-inch gun is a gracious plenty. Most factory guns are delivered with about 14 pound springs, and Colt Commanders generally run to about 16 or a little less.
If you're concerned with frame battering on a heavy-use pistol, there are better ways to address the issue...and without using shock buffs, wich have been known to throw a fly into the ointment on occasion.
 
My Dan Wesson Patriot with external extractor (slightly different than the Kimber) had extraction problems once due to junk in the channel and tight "over and under" clearances between the extractor arm and the frame slot. Ultimately it resulted in a chipped extractor claw.

When I replaced the new part from DW, I made sure to stone down the top and bottom surfaces of the new extractor so there was no friction and some clearance to boot. It's run 100% the 8000 rounds since then...

-z
 
Hi, Tuner and guys,

I think those are good ideas, Tuner, but I wonder if there might be another factor. This is just blue sky, of course, but could it happen this way?

The external extractor does not have the large gap between the breech face and the hook the old internal extractor has (at the insistence of the army to deal with short cases).

The top round, having low friction (do the mag followers have the dimple?), is hit by the slide and jumps ahead of the extractor. For one reason or another, the slide closes without the extractor snapping over the rim.

The round is fired and the downlink takes place too soon (a couple of things can cause this), while there is still residual pressure in the barrel, so the case is not only extracted, but is actually being forced from the chamber by pressure. The case drops down and is jammed into the magazine, while the rearward movement of the slide strikes the mouth of the case.

This looks like the classic case of the slide moving forward and jamming a case that is not extracted-ejected properly, but a few things make me wonder. If this is the case, the barrel foot and link configuration need to be examined, not just the extractor.

What think you?

Jim
 
Theory

Hey Jim. Thanks for jumpin' in.

I see where you're lookin', and at this point, I'd say that anything is possible,
but on the round jumping the follower and the extractor not snapping over,
I don't see how the pistol would fire unless the disconnector slot in the slide was way out of position or too long. Some pistols won't disconnect until the slide has moved nearly a 16th inch...but the extractor not snapping over would probably hold the slide out of battery something on the order of an eighth of an inch or more. He can check this by slipping a fired case into the chamber and easing the slide forward until the extractor hits the rim and stops the slide...and seeing if pulling the trigger will drop the hammer with the slide that far out of battery. My money says not...

Another point...Though there is a percentage of guns floating around that will "extract" and eject fired brass with the extractor removed entirely...it
would be hard for me to believe that a case blown out of the chamber could
be blown with enough force to wedge itself back into the magazine...assuming
that it would even hit the feed lips at just the right place not once, but several times.

I used to run into this identical jam a lot with Auto Ordnance pistols that had the extractor channel located too far to the right to let the firing pin stop
prevent clocking. More tension didn't help much, and neither did an oversized stop. The cure was to put a drop of solder into the extractor's slot so I could get a close fit with the firing pin stop. In a pinch, JB Weld will also work, though it won't last as long as solder.
 
This is why I'm thinkin' it's a foreign substance problem (dirt, crud, gunk, etc):

This particular pistol has just over 6000 rounds and is six months old. It has served me faithfully and nearly flawlessly for thousands of rounds and countless USPSA matches and range sessions. But lately, last two months or so, this is starting to happen almost every 50 rounds or so. Disturbing and troubling to me.
Click to expand...

I've know of three Team Matches, two of them well past 10K rounds, and they all shoot great and have been problem free. I don't think the extractor spring will go bad in 6K but if it was bad from the get-go, it's possible.
The Team Match extractor is a bit different than your everyday Kimber production models. They are shaped different (and not MIM) than the new extractors Kimber is using on all their guns (and still trying to finalize the design.)
 
I'm not Tuner but I drive past a Holiday Inn every day..........
It's extractor clocking. It means the extractor is rotating around like the hands of a clock in it's channel. It's caused by the slot in the back of the extractor being wider than the width of the firing pin stop plate. The fix is to get a new stop plate and fit it on that side to the extractor slot.
 
Clocking

Thanks Kruzr. Spot on.

To see how a clocking extractor can cause that jam...form a "hook" with your
fingers and right hand with your palm parallel to a wall. Imagine a giant case rim engaged by your fingers Now...rotate your hand counter clockwise a few degrees, and you can see how the hook can drop the case..or allow it to fall below the breechface centerline. If the hook has a good bite on the rim,
the case can actually be dragged back into the magazine in extreme circumstances. At the very least, it can easily push the magazine follower down far enough to prevent locking the slide, and when the slide heads back to battery...crunch!

This can also happen with an external extractor that can't clock...due to lack of tension on the rim. All that has to occur is that the case drop about .065 inch and for the hook to be in good shape.

Try spraying some carburetor cleaner around the extractor and spring to flush out any hard gunk to see if it improves. If it does...Kruzr squashed your bug.
Take it apart and clean it up...and order a new spring for when yours wears out. Kimber will probably give ya one. :cool:
 
Not much to add to the extractor issue and I think Tuner and Kruzr nailed it. Due to your round count, I don't think it would be a burr, but debris or a weak spring would be suspect for me.

To answer your damage question since I didn't read anyone address it, no. The brass is much softer then your slide. :)
 
Hi, Tuner,

It was just an idea. But the external extractors are different from the internal. In many (not all) cases, a round jumping ahead of the internal extractor will stop the slide from going into battery due to the shape of the extractor hook. But the external extractors are curved so that the extractor is cammed out by the cartridge rim just like other external extractors. If the clearance is too small (or the rim too thick) the extractor will just sit on the edge of the rim and not fully engage, even when the gun is fired. That was what I was thinking.

But, yes, I think under some circumstances of premature linkdown, you can still have enough residual pressure to drive the case rearward with considerable velocity, well beyond the normal slide speed resulting from recoil alone. I honestly don't know if the result would or even could be as shown, but I think it might be an area to consider.

Jim
 
Jim's Thoughts

Ah! Okay...I see where you're at now. I haven't had an opportunity to look closely at the position of the external extractor-equipped pistols yet. I
had assumed that they were still controlled-feed. Guess I need to get my nose outta these old GIs and look at new stuff.

Wonder why the designers shortened the distance from hook to breechface...Odd.

My step-son has a new Kimber in the showcase. I'll slide by the shop and take a closer look at it tomorrow. Kinda curious about it.
 
Kimber external extractors

Here are pics of the different design external extractors you may find on a Kimber. The Team Match is the stainless one. You can see it's a bit different than the others. These are the iterations Kimber is going through to find the one design that seems to work in all their models.

Pics from 1911forum member "gaspipes". Thanks gaspipes!
4extractors.jpg

4extractors3.jpg

4extractors4.jpg
 
This is a good thread. Thanks for those pics. I didn't realize the manufacturers were still trying to find their way with the external extractor design. Another reason to perhaps pass up the impulse to delve into one of these pistols and stay with the old design.

Thanks for all the edumacation.
 
Wow, just wow, Kimber is possibly using all of your lives, if these are self-defense pistols, on a Beta test? That is mind blowing. :mad:
 
Wow, just wow, Kimber is possibly using all of your lives, if these are self-defense pistols, on a Beta test? That is mind blowing.
Click to expand...
I'ts not a problem that suddenly appears, it will cause FTE's from the get go.
Most of the problems are with the shorter guns, the Ultras and Pro size. I've seen quite a few new Kimbers in the past year and I've seen the problem twice. Once on an Ultra and once with a Pro size. All the rest have worked fine. The latest reports seem to indicate that the 4th iteration is working for people...........finally.
 
Problem if extractor not flush w/ slide?

Question for you guys...as I re-examine the pictures and the pistol, i notice two things:

1. Extractor, visible in picture "01", not completely flush with the slide (ever so slightly sitting away from the slide from the top view)...is this an indication of being too far to the left...perhaps not enough to diminish the bite but enough to reduce the tension?

2. Extractor, visible in picture "02", not aligned with extraction port? (too far back...relief cut scallop/flare on extractor doesn't match the start/end relief cut lines of the slide)...although it would seem to me that being too far FORWARD, not too far BACK as in this case, would cause/aggravate the lack of tension issue...not the other way 'round...so not sure if this is significant in any way.
 
I notice that the "Team Match" extractor has a different shape, such that it could contact the extractor groove before full engagement is reached. That would confirm what I think I saw in the pictures, with a deep gouge in the extractor groove and scrape marks on the rim, as if the extractor had been stopped by the groove without fully engaging the rim. I am not sure exactly what that means in terms of what has been happening, but it is something to think about.

FWIW, the question is not really why the external extractor doesn't have a lot of clearance but why the internal type does. It is not so that the round will feed up under the extractor, as many think. It dates back to 1908 or thereabouts, when Frankford Arsenal first went into production of .45 Auto cartridges. Up to that point, all the test ammo had been bought from commercial sources, but the government wanted its own ammo supply. FA had had no experience with cases that headspaced on the mouth, and was having trouble keeping to case length specs. So the Army got JMB to use an extractor that could engage and extract cases that were shorter than specified. The result was that 1/10 inch or so between the extractor hook and the breech face.

Jim
 
Hold the Phone!

Went back and looked closer...Keenan mighta just nailed it.

If the front of the extractor is hitting the forward area of the extractor groove and springing the hook to the right...and the slide moves faster than the spring can keep up with...and the very end of the hook is grabbing the edge of the rim without putting any side tension on it...It would absolutely
let the case drop low enough to hit the mag follower and do the trick that it's doing.

Slide off...Slip a case under the extractor and use a dowel or other suitable rod through the muzzle to push the case firmly against the breechface. Use a flashlight to look at the hook engagement on the case from the underside
of the slide and see if the front of the hook is hard against the forward part of the extractor groove. Release pressure on the rod and watch the extractor closely to see if it moves back toward the centerline of the breechface.

If it does...and it's not more than just a little contact, you may be able to
file a light relief angle on the nose of the extractor to create a little clearance there. Try to match the angle of the extractor groove and don't remove more material than necessary to get just a tiny bit of clearance. It only needs about .005 inch...or about the thickness of a sheet of typing paper. Don't shorten the hook.

Luck!
 
Just make sure everything is clean before you start making any adjustments. Gunk in the spring or between the plunger and the extractor can make it hang out further than it should.
 
Bill at King's

Well, waited until Bill at King's got back...I took the pistol into him for an assessment today. He took one look at the pistol and kind of just shook his head. Said that he really likes Kimber, but since they've gone to the external extractor, he's seeing more and more problems with Kimbers. Won't give up on them, still thinks they produce one of the best clones on the market, great tolerances, fittings, etc., and even the MIM didn't seem to bother him as much as the external extractor...deal breaker for him. (He was quite pleased to hear that my next 1911 was Springfield...said it was a much better overall product). Said that given how new the Kimber was, it's best if I shipped it to Dennis at Kimber for trouble-shooting and resolution. Upon return, if it STILL was choking, then he'll work on it after Dennis works his magic. $83.90 for overnight shipping per regulations...asking Kimber to reimburse me but their policy is they only pay for the return shipment. Sucks. Wish me luck!
 
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