Pietta colts bolt stop notches getting peened

[1KPerDay]

I understand this is a fairly common issue. I'm surprised at how quickly this is happening. 1851 "navy" .44 (note the quotes) has been cycled maybe 50 times and shot about 36 rounds. The ramp to the notch on the cylinder is being peened into the notch. 1860 army has been dry cycled (lowering the hammer softly however) maybe 80 times and is already peened. I've read the large .pdf file about tuning the pietta and have a couple of questions:

1. how does thinning the bolt help solve this problem? If the issue is a too-hard bolt spring and a too-soft cylinder (and possibly dropping the bolt too late on the ramp) how does making the bolt thinner to match the width of the notch solve it?

2. Once I gouge out the peened material (assuming I can figure out how) and square up the notches again, and install lighter springs, and possibly fit the bolt... will the problem reappear or is it good to go?

3. is there anything else that needs to be done? shaping the bolt legs so it drops earlier or anything? can all of this be done by a reasonably competent kitchen table gun fiddler or should I send them all to Goons?

4. Do remingtons have this issue and if not, why not?

 

[J-Bar]

I am not a gunsmith, nor am I especially handy with tools. But I have used Pettifogger's guide to work on about 8 Pietta open top revolvers with good success...enough success that they could be used in cowboy action competition reliably. If your reference is not the one by Pettifogger, let me know and I will send you a link.

1. Trying to force a bolt that is too wide for the cylinder notch is obviously going to put excess pressure on the sides of the notch, whether timing is perfect or not. You might have to adjust the timing of the bolt, but without fitting the bolt to the narrowest notch it's not going to do much good.

2. Of the Piettas I worked on, I only had to tinker with timing on one. Mine were good to go after fitting the bolt to the notch. Burr removal is pretty easy with a disposable deburring tool:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Disposable-Deburring-4-pc-Set/H8078

Can't advise on a Remington, never owned one.

Fortunately these are pretty simple guns to work on, and it's very satisfying to get one tuned up yourself. Take heart!!

 

[1KPerDay]

thank you sir! did you do all of pettifogger's mods or just bolt/timing?

did you replace bolt springs or weaken them or loosen the screw or something else?


do you use different nipples?


do you shim your armors?


Did you find your bolts were too wide in every case or how many did you have to shave down?

 

[Noz]

I'll let J-Bar, my evil twin, answer for himself but I did the following for all of my Piettas:
1. Yes
2. Yes to the first part. I like the wire springs.
3. Yes TRESOs first choice, SLIX second
4. Arbors on Piettas are good and generally don't need adjustment.
5. Every case. A few minutes with a fine file and then a polishing stone on each gun. You will not believe how much this improves the feel of your guns.

 

[J-Bar]

thank you sir! did you do all of pettifogger's mods or just bolt/timing?

did you replace bolt springs or weaken them or loosen the screw or something else?


do you use different nipples?


do you shim your armors?


Did you find your bolts were too wide in every case or how many did you have to shave down?

I had to adjust arbor length on some Ubertis, but as I recall, the arbor length on the Piettas did not require shimming.

Some guns show a surprising variation in width from one notch to the next. You can get an idea of how much variation there is by which notches are peened the worst. On the guns I have worked on, the bolt might fit one or two notches, but most of the notches were too narrow for the bolt. I would fit the bolt to the notches first, then shoot it for a while. If you are still getting peening, then the timing needs adjustment. I would not play with the timing until you absolutely have to...much easier to screw up.

I replaced the factory flat sear/bolt spring with wire springs from Wolff. The wire springs may have to be tweaked a bit to fit, but not a big deal:

https://www.gunsprings.com/index.php?page=items&cID=3&mID=1&dID=96

scroll down about half a page to "Sear/Bolt Springs"... I used these:

Wire-Type Springs (Stock No. 32297-32299) fits: EMF Only

EMF imported Piettas, and they fit pretty well. Watch out for the package size, it's a drop down menu in each case. I always ordered a couple of extras because as I said I'm not really all that handy!!

I used the wire springs mostly because I did not want to deal with a broken flat spring during competition; the Wolff springs never break.

I replace all factory nipples with Treso nipples. Some folks have good luck with Slix-Shot Nipples, but I prefer Treso/Ampco. Factory nipples suck.

Tresos (Ampco) from the Possibles Shop:

http://possibleshop.com/s-s-nipples-cb.html

Unfortunately they show out of stock at the moment, but I know they are being manufactured again, so contact Mr. Mayes (owner) and get an update.

Slix Shot Nipples:

http://www.longhunt.com/storelh/index.php?route=product/product&path=88_97&product_id=267

There are probably other suppliers as well, but these two have given me good service.

As you can see, Noz is getting faster. He outdrew me this time!!

 

[45 Dragoon]

1K,
The peening is happening because of late timing. The bolt needs to drop fully before reaching the edge of the locking notch. This is the way most of the revolvers come from Italy (Remington's included). The bolt spring (half of the combo spring) is usually way over tensioned which helps the bolt dig into the cylinder.
It's not in stone that all Pietta open tops have good arbors, some need work (most in my work but I'm picky!), they are better than they used to be.
The flat springs work great if tuned properly and will last as long as the wires (I can't stand wires, they're mushy). I had a wire spring break in an El Patron just a couple of weeks ago, while I was checking it for function! (It was probably cracked when I received it.) They do break. That's the first thing I change in a so called " factory tuned" revolver.
I would clean the peened area and fit the bolt to the notches. Lighten the bolt spring (a thin washer under the combo spring well help some). If you don't correct the timing though, it'll just happen again.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

 

[expat_alaska]

45 Dragoon:

Lighten the bolt spring (a thin washer under the combo spring well help some).

Mike, your advice is always good, but I think you should qualify your statement by specifying the thickness of a "thin" washer, in thousandths.

Modifying the position of the trigger/bolt spring in this way may cause the hold-down screw to protrude enough as to not allow the trigger guard to fully mate with the frame.

https://www.boltdepot.com/Metric_fl...el_18-8.aspx?gclid=CKqDl9-9lcgCFUJufgodEAsGOw

It may not matter much with a Pietta, but it sure does with an ASM 1848/1849 Pocket due to their different configuration of trigger guards, as I have found.

It might be better to bend the spring to the appropriate fit/operation, check once or twice, and re-temper the spring.

This is what I had to do on My ASM Pocket.

Jim

 

[mr wack]

I'm following this thread , my 1860 is fine but who knows, my next might need a little TLC,,,

Love your sig line 1K,,

"You better send that defective __________ to me for proper disposal." Not original. Not funny. Not helpful. Please make it stop ".

 

[1KPerDay]

1K,
The peening is happening because of late timing. The bolt needs to drop fully before reaching the edge of the locking notch. This is the way most of the revolvers come from Italy (Remington's included). The bolt spring (half of the combo spring) is usually way over tensioned which helps the bolt dig into the cylinder.
It's not in stone that all Pietta open tops have good arbors, some need work (most in my work but I'm picky!), they are better than they used to be.
The flat springs work great if tuned properly and will last as long as the wires (I can't stand wires, they're mushy). I had a wire spring break in an El Patron just a couple of weeks ago, while I was checking it for function! (It was probably cracked when I received it.) They do break. That's the first thing I change in a so called " factory tuned" revolver.
I would clean the peened area and fit the bolt to the notches. Lighten the bolt spring (a thin washer under the combo spring well help some). If you don't correct the timing though, it'll just happen again.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

Thanks all and thanks mike.

Fix the timing... how is that done exactly? How do I make the bolt drop sooner without messing anything else up? the rotation and hammer and everything appear to be good.

Mike, how do you adjust the flat springs? Is it something a tyro can handle?

How exactly do I gouge out the peened over metal?

thanks again

 

[dickydalton]

Mike makes a living doing that to guns. You may be asking a bit much this time.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Dicky, I'm not that mean!!!! Lol

Sorry, been in the shop some more this eve. Anyway, most of the time, if its not too bad, I'll use a thick piece of feeler gauge to "scrape" it out. Be careful, you can scratch the cylinder easy. If it's too much to scrape out, I'll use a small cut off wheel and carefully cut it out and square up the side (this is the hard way, takes a lot of practice, scary if you have any doubts).
If you have some good files, it may be easier to file the peening off.

The washer under the combo spring can be quite thin so that you don't have a high screw head. I generally use stainless washers and fit them to the screw in the gun. What this does though is it moves the spring off the floor and presents a better angle for tuning each side of the spring. Slightly contouring the springs more or less for the tension needed. The bolt only needs about 3 lbs. pressure but usually comes with as much as 6 or 7!! The trigger spring is the last spring you adjust (when you're happy with everything else).

The bolt drop is adjusted by removing material from the top (horizontal) of the "flag" on the end of the left arm of the bolt. Notice I said removing ( you can't put it back on!) so be careful. The more you remove , the sooner it will drop. The rear most part of the flag (the vertical ) is what rides the hammer cam and this determines how far the bolt descends into the frame. On my guns, the bolt descends just to the frame waterline and sits there until drop occurs. As the hammer is thumbed back, the cam is being pulled away from the bolt arm. Drop happens when the arm drops off the front of the cam. That is why the material removed from the top of the flag (making the surface that rides the cam shorter) results in earlier and earlier drop off.
Keep in mind, it is NOT supposed to fall off the side of the cam. It's easy to see with the trigger guard off. If you read this and watch it in action, you'll understand.

The thing about the bolt descent is this, the further the bolt goes down, the more the bolt spring is moved. Obviously reducing that movement stresses the spring less which will extend the life of the spring. I know folks think these "simple" actions are just that, but, a really well tuned S.A. (especially with flat springs) is joy to hold and will last a looooooong time.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

 

[1KPerDay]

Thanks Mike. Pm me with your wait times and prices for a full pietta tune and goon.