Pistol Caliber Carbines - Opinions

[GunTech]

The problem with pistol caliber carbines:

1. Lack of power. Adding barrel length will not make a 9mm into a 223. If you look at actually shootings, the most powerful handgun cartridges don't compare well to even moderately powerful mid range rifle rounds.

2. Lack of penetration and overpenetration. When pistol caliber carbines and SMG started to be adopted by police agencies, one of the rationales was that rifle caliber rounds - in particular 223/5.56 - would overpentrate in urban environments, causing a hazard to bystandards. Actual tests showed 9mm and 40 were actually more likely to present a hazard due to overpenetration. This has been one of the factors that has led to the wide spread adoption of 223 by law enforcement agencies.

If you need penetration, a full power rifle, or intermediate cartridge with the proper ammunition will defeat barricades, vehicles, etc - should this be a requirement.

3. Cost. Unless you are looking at the more inexpensive PCCs - Keltec, Hi-Point - there is generally not much of a price advantage of PCC over rifles.

Basically, a rifle caliber carbine can do everything a PCC can do - and do it all better.

All that being said, the most inexpensive PCCs (Keltec, Hi-Point) are still about $100 less than inexpensive rifle caliber carbines like the Saiga - and well under most American and European military style carbines.

(A quick check on Gunbroker shows a NIB Hi-Point 995TS for $250 and Saiga 7.62x39 16.5bbl for $350)

 

[ainokea]

How about a lever action in 38special/357magnum I love my Marlin 336. Recoil is minimal, reliable, 38 special is fairly cheap for recreational shooting and for defense the 357magnum is pretty efficient. Even the +p 38special is good.

 

[CapnMac]

For indoor use, inside a house, especially in new construction, there is a lot to be said for the increased aim-ability of a PCC. Self-loading makes for better stress-coping for less-experienced shooters, too.

When I lived in apartments, I really wanted my neighbors to be armed with a carbine in the 25-32acp class, and not the 12ga 00 & 000 buck they all seemed to have all-to-near-to-hand. Or that 30-30 or .444marlin, for that matter.

When I lived in a four-plex, the Marlin 45 Camp Carbine was clearly a good choice, and I could think of common walls as a potential accidental backstop in a different light.

When I moved to a house, my perspective changed. The PCC still makes sense, although a .30carbine is often at hand.

However, in each of those cases, in the (very slim) chance I would be leaving the cover of the domicile and going out amid danger, then, I can think of no PCC I'd take into harm's way that a shorter rifle would not be better chosen.

But, that's, me; others differ.

 

[Boberama]

A good one for ANY situation is an ar chambered in .22, with a 10 inch barrel. Using subsonic ammo it has GREAT stopping power, nervous system damage, and can be fired very fast and accurately. You don't flinch if it has a suppressor and it is light and HANDY, ideal for most situations, all situations.

 

[FMJMIKE]

The good old M1 Carbine with soft point ammo is a good choice for home defense.

 

[SaxonPig]

The pistol caliber carbine is fun to shoot and makes sense for some self-defense situations. A carbine is easier for many people to shoot well and a rifle is more intimidating in a confrontation with a criminal. Yes, a rifle caliber carbine is much more powerful but becomes more difficult to shoot and is much too powerful for home defense due to over penetration.

 

[Caliper_Mi]

With it's carbine length barrel, it's more like a 357 than a 9mm

http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/results.html

The 9mm with carbine length barrel gains noticeably over a pistol, but it is no .357. I can't say as I'd want to be shot by either though!

A .357 lever action carbine is a PCC as well. Significantly higher velocity with heavier weight bullets to boot.

I'd say, one of each!

 

[Jonny V]

Hey BluEyes! I'm a firm believer in having one weapon for every one of my personalities!
I agree that the 9mm does not make it into hot loaded 357 territory, but it does make a respectable leap. As I also tried to point out, I can hit with it as fast as I can pull the trigger. Not quite full auto speed, but 5-7 casings in the air at once would be about right, and that's AIMED fire. Pretty hard to argue.

The rifle guys have valid points about the power of their weapons, but in the home defense scenario, the good old 870 is king (IMO). With extended magazine and loaded with Centurion "buck and ball" loads (.65 cal lead ball and 6 00 pellets), we have the makins of ejecting the home invaders whether they like it or not. That's the setup at my bedside, although, I will admit, there is a loaded Camp 9 downstairs............

 

[ironhead7544]

The CorBon 115 gr 9mm ammo went 1440 fps in my Marlin Camp Carbine. Thats very close to 357 Mag power. Its also a lot easier to hit with in a stressful situation. If you are afraid of over penetration then the Glaser slugs will work. One thing no one mentioned is that firing a .223 in the house will leave you deaf for quite a while. The 9mm/45ACP is not as bad. Just my .02.

 

[CTGunner]

The problem with pistol caliber carbines:

1. Lack of power. Adding barrel length will not make a 9mm into a 223. If you look at actually shootings, the most powerful handgun cartridges don't compare well to even moderately powerful mid range rifle rounds.

2. Lack of penetration and overpenetration. When pistol caliber carbines and SMG started to be adopted by police agencies, one of the rationales was that rifle caliber rounds - in particular 223/5.56 - would overpentrate in urban environments, causing a hazard to bystandards. Actual tests showed 9mm and 40 were actually more likely to present a hazard due to overpenetration. This has been one of the factors that has led to the wide spread adoption of 223 by law enforcement agencies.

If you need penetration, a full power rifle, or intermediate cartridge with the proper ammunition will defeat barricades, vehicles, etc - should this be a requirement.

3. Cost. Unless you are looking at the more inexpensive PCCs - Keltec, Hi-Point - there is generally not much of a price advantage of PCC over rifles.

Basically, a rifle caliber carbine can do everything a PCC can do - and do it all better.

All that being said, the most inexpensive PCCs (Keltec, Hi-Point) are still about $100 less than inexpensive rifle caliber carbines like the Saiga - and well under most American and European military style carbines.

(A quick check on Gunbroker shows a NIB Hi-Point 995TS for $250 and Saiga 7.62x39 16.5bbl for $350)

Thanks for your thoughts. This is helpful. I'm thinking the one thing that a pcc can do for me that a rifle can't is be shot a lot more due to cheaper ammo.

 

[mcdonl]

Thanks Guntech, I get it now.

 

[Jonny V]

You know, I just bet that old Lt Col George Custer was looking down at all those indians armed with their puny little PCC's and thinking, "what a bunch of morons, this is going to be easy.....", after all, he had a whole calvary unit armed with rifles.

The point is that it's not the weapon that decides the outcome. It's the person behind the weapon.

 

[Zach S]

I'm thinking the one thing that a pcc can do for me that a rifle can't is be shot a lot more due to cheaper ammo.

Its also allowed at more ranges. Rifle calibers are unpleasant at indoor ranges, even with doubled hearing protection.

 

[S. Hill]

I know that this company is kind of new, but have you taken a look at their products? www.thureondefense.com

Won't break the bank, and the product seems to be priced pretty low, considering that the upper and lower receiver is milled from aluminum bar stock.

They have a new video online, a torture test of their 9mm carbine. Seems to work pretty well.

 

[oldfool]

A good one for ANY situation is an ar chambered in .22, with a 10 inch barrel. Using subsonic ammo it has GREAT stopping power, nervous system damage, and can be fired very fast and accurately. You don't flinch if it has a suppressor and it is light and HANDY, ideal for most situations, all situations.

uhhh... the 22 rimfire is an "LR" round
long rifle round
hence, the AR in 22 is not a PCC
mighty handy for backpacking, though, if you don't mind the excessive weight

PS
yo, bober, you ever looked at an American 180 ???
I think "this one's for you", bud !

 

[oldfool]

I can understand why some riflemen just feel that any rifle must shoot "flat", be good to kill at 100 to 300 yards (or more), and/or penetrate armor

but the PCCs are wonderful "90 percenters",... good for for 90% of whatever you are most likely to do inside a hundred yards
(ol' Grizz lives in the other 10% of course)
38/357 lever actions, aka "New York Assault Rifles", very versatile tools
(if they were black plastic, had pistol grips and flash suppressors, do you reckon more people would buy 'em ??)
as are the semi-auto carbines in pistol calibers
fair argument could be posed that urban LEOs would be better off w/ such vs. ARs
(call SWAT if you really need a 308 sniper rifle, etc., that's what the radio is for)

what's not to love about PCCs.. in any caliber of your liking

PS
nice to see somebody mention the Thompson "tommy gun" in 45acp
a classic PCC if ever there was one

 

[oldfool]

some say that the 223 is a great carbine choice because it will not over penetrate,
AND that is is a great choice because you need a rifle round that will penetrate

(yup, I know military issue variants have a "select fire", just didn't know it was a "penetrate/don't penetrate" select, go figger)

oh well, what's not to love about diversity

 

[Caliper_Mi]

uhhh... the 22 rimfire is an "LR" round
long rifle round
hence, the AR in 22 is not a PCC

So, does that make a Ruger MkIII a RCP (Rifle Caliber Pistol)?

All this has me wanting a 9x19 lever action oddball. Should be fun, cheap to shoot, and about 1/3 more ammo than a .357...

 

[oldfool]

the MkIII is a bit of a stretch for RCP labeling

BUT... an MkII w/ 10" bull barrel pretty much qualifies !
(got one, outshoots most average off-the shelf 22LR rifles... and smaller than a AR-22 to boot, silencer purely optional, if willing to pay the license, me not)

and Bobo really do need a Casull American 180, that much is clear

 

[FruitCake]

This is exactly why I'm getting a SUB 2000. It will shoot what mÿ G17 fires and the mags fit to. Its the best of both worlds IMO. I can carry 9mm and that's it. You can pretty much find 9mm any where and its cheap and plentiful. Now its not a super high powered riffle but at or within 100 yards its seems to shoot pretty accurate. In a need food situation it could actually be used for hunting, just might have to use more bullets. I'm not a proffesional like some of you guys but I'm pretty sure it could be used for hunting in a dire situation.

 

[SuperNaut]

I hunt small game with my Storm .45 all the time. In fact, popping jackrabbits with a red-dot equipped PCC is a hell of a lot of fun (not really edible game, but the skills are the same). You don't need more shots, and in fact it does a heck of a lot better than a rifle caliber - a lot less ruined meat.

I don't understand why people are so quick to dismiss PCC's on one hand while touting handguns on the other. If you think about power and range factors, the jump from a pistol to a rifle leaves a huge intermediate hole. A hole that PCC's fill quite neatly.

 

[CraigC]

I don't understand why people are so quick to dismiss PCC's on one hand while touting handguns on the other. If you think about power and range factors, the jump from a pistol to a rifle leaves a huge intermediate hole. A hole that PCC's fill quite neatly.

Agreed!

 

[briansmithwins]

I don't understand why people are so quick to dismiss PCC's on one hand while touting handguns on the other.

Not me! I think all (practical) handgun calibers are weak and generally ineffective against humans. The only reason we carry pistols is because they are easy to conceal, not because they are an effective weapon.

PCCs get you more effective range than a pistol because they are stocked weapons and generally have a little longer barrel. They are still limited by the lack of power.

Rifles are a different matter altogether. With good (generally not FMJ) ammunition a rifle will remove flesh, shatter bone, and generally cause non-survivable wounds in humans when hit in the torso or head.

PCCs are fun. I wouldn't have one as my only long gun.

BSW

 

[thetoad45]

I really don't think anyone should rely on a handgun as their sole defensive arm. I look at mine as a last ditch defense gun for when all else fails. I chose a Marlin carbine in the same caliber as the revolver. Put a fire sight on the front. I'd like to get a couple of pump shotguns someday but at the moment I don't feel at all defenseless with my revolver/rifle combo. It's also big enough to gather both small game and smallish deer without issue. I have a carbine on which I put a Burris 4x scope.

 

[stonecoldy]

I've had a 995 Hi-Point in 9mm and a Marlin 1894C in .38/.357 Magnum for a couple years each and like both to varying degrees, but would let the Hi-Point go first. Not happy about the 10 round clips for home defense as a primary go-to gun. If it can't match or beat my Browning High Power in magazine capacity, not as helpful.
The Hi-Point is fun to fart around with, plinking and such.