Pistol Timing and how to adjust

[Tru Griff]

In the past there has been talk of pistol timing of the cylinder when the hammer did not strike the nipple directly. Another subject has been not to dry fire and ways to dry fire using leather, rubber and even aquarium plastic tubing.

While in the gun shop I noticed some pre-cut tubing labeled as nipple protecters so I grabbed a bag, put them on my P.I.E Colt Army 44 and began dry firing my pistol.

Once I began to do this I noticed that after a couple of cylinders the hammer hits just off to the left and not directly on the nipple. It will do this for two cylinders, then go back to hitting correctly on two then back to an offset for two again. Does this sound like a timing issue?

I've never shot a complete load out of this pistol at all. I've shot a blank load on the 4th of July but thats it. I notice that when the hammer hits the nipple offset I can pull the cylinder over and it locks in the correct position. There is no play in it but it seems as though it is not catching on those spots.

I looked at the breakdown of the pistol in the book it came with but on the frame under the cylinder the place where I thought the catch is or whatever it's called it did not have a description. I had hoped to find something to help explain how to adjust this timing issue if thats what it is but there was none.

If need be I'll be taking it up the road and see if they can adjust this but I wanted to know if there were any other reasons that would cause this to happen. Some have said that it will leave a small lead ring where it shaved off the ball while coming out of the cylinder same as when your loading. I can only see trouble down the road with the gun if this is going to be the only way to shoot it without correct timing. Not to mention I'm just not comfortable shooting a pistol this way. Thanks for any help.

 

[DuncanSA]

I look forward to comments on revolver timing by some of the real experts who frequent this forum. It is truly one of the "dark arts".

 

[mykeal]

The part that comes out of the frame and engages the notches on the cylinder to stop it's rotation is called the bolt.

Failure of the bolt to fully engage the notch (and thus stop the cylinder 'in battery') can be due to several things: the shape/size of the head of the bolt that actually goes into the notch, the shape/size of the notch, the length/shape of the 'hand' (the part that reaches out from the back of the frame to push the cylinder around), the strength of the spring on the hand that pushes it out of the hole in the frame, the strength of the spring that forces the bolt through the opening in the frame, the shape of the curvature on the leg of the bolt that engages the cam on the side of the hammer, the shape of the cam on the side of the hammer, etc.

Diagnosing the actual fault is extremely difficult without being able to watch the various parts interact. I suggest two options: remove the trigger guard and operate the cocking mechanism several times while observing how the parts interact and what influences the bolt engaging the notch on time, and take the gun to a gunsmith familiar with the Colt single action design. Frankly, the mechanism is quite simple and easy to figure out. But like any genius design, it has some very subtle interfaces that are key to proper operation and they can be a real 'pistol' to understand.

So I'm going to disappoint Duncan and not attempt the black art without being able to see the parts working together.

 

[Pancho]

Mykeal, I sent my new 62 Colt Police back to Taylor's to "adjust" the timing after realizing that if I cocked the gun fast and hard it would go out of time but would go back into time after a couple of cycles. Taylor's gunsmith "adjusted" the time but cautioned me that the Colts were prone to this condition if cocked hard and fast. The Smith acted like it was just a fact and one should just learn to live with it. What do you think?

 

[bigbadgun]

I have 2 colts the Walker and the 51 navy um I have NEVER had a problem like that on either of them cock it fast or slow my colts are in perfect time.

 

[mykeal]

The Colt single action design depends on close tolerances being met. They were originally, and to some extent still are today, individually assembled and timed by craftsmen, people who were experienced and talented at knowing just how much metal to remove and where to remove it to get that fine adjustment made properly. That the speed of the action could affect timing results is not surprising since much depends on springs and spring rates. It's a fine balance and easy to upset with just a minor discrepancy. It's also easy to get close and either think the balance is correct when it's not or just say, 'It's good enough' when it's not quite.

Your gunsmith is correct up to a point. He's also a bit lazy, or perhaps very busy and either doesn't have time or doesn't want to spend your money chasing nits and lice.

I'd have to say that most (well, maybe almost most) of my revolvers (Colts and Remingtons for this discussion) are timed well enough that speed doesn't matter. The ones that are not are the bane of my existence and will probably never be just perfect. I've given up trying more times than I care to count.

 

[ZeSpectre]

This is one of those times I'd say take it to a gunsmith. Revolver timing is not for the novice and mistakes can be catastrophic.

 

[StrawHat]

The Smith acted like it was just a fact and one should just learn to live with it. What do you think?

Another common cure is to install a stronger trigger return/bolt spring.

Or just bend the leg of the spring that contacts the bolt to produce a stronger push.

If the bolt is a little too wide it may not catch the notches when the revolver is cocked quickly.

You can see there are a bunch of ways for this to happen.

The revolvers actually work better if cocked smoothly, fast handling of the revolver causes parts to wear out quickly. That's why there is a cottage indusry of gunsmiths thanks to the cowboy action sports.

 

[BDFT]

I was hoping for some insight. My Armi San Marco Walker clone goes out of time when cocked fast. I need to replace the hand anyway. Maybe I'll replace the cyl lock spring while I'm at it.

 

[Old Fuff]

Timing a cap & ball revolver is not a black art, but fully explaining it would cover a long magazine article, or a small book - and The Old Fuff hasn't time to do either right now...

At the Colt factory during the 19th century these guns were assembled and fitted in a certain order, and that order was critical to correct timing. The first and most important step, which is often overlooked today, was to fit the trigger so that when the hammer was at full-cock the back of it hit and was stopped from further rotation by the backstrap. Otherwise excessive shock could be transmitted through the hand to the cylinder ratchet tooth, and the cylinder bolt would tend to batter and peen the notches in the cylinder. In a worst case the cylinder could miss the bolt and over-rotate.

At this point I have to stop becuse other matters need attention and I am pressed for time. But perhaps the above will give some of you a clue...

One other quick point: Going to a strong cylinder bolt/trigger spring is likely to end up wearing a groove in the cylinder unless the bolt is released just short of the notch. Then if you cock the revolver fast and hard the bolt may likely skip and miss the notch.

 

[BDFT]

I just finished a hour and a half filing out the hole in the hammer of my Walker to fit a new Uberti hand. The pin in the Uberti is much bigger than the Armi San Marco part. Hopefully it's harder too. Problem solved. It appears that the broken spring was allowing the hand to turn the cylinder past the locking bolt before it engaged. Once the new hand was installed, it stays in time and locks up no matter how fast and hard you cock it.

 

[Misfire99]

I have a hard time believing that the problem is the way the poster described. It's in time for two cylinders then out of time for two then back in time??? This makes no sense to me at all. This would mean that the same parts are sometimes in time for the same chamber of the cylinder and at other times not. Nothing is changing. The hand doesn't lengthen or shorten. The bolt doesn't get fatter or slimmer and the cylinder doesn't change dimensions. So how can a chamber be out of time and the next time around be in time. Something isn't right here.

 

[Tru Griff]

"I have a hard time believing that the problem is the way the poster described. It's in time for two cylinders then out of time for two then back in time??? This makes no sense to me at all. This would mean that the same parts are sometimes in time for the same chamber of the cylinder and at other times not. Nothing is changing. The hand doesn't lengthen or shorten. The bolt doesn't get fatter or slimmer and the cylinder doesn't change dimensions. So how can a chamber be out of time and the next time around be in time. Something isn't right here."

That would be because it is the same chambers that the hammer is hitting off center every time. I checked this with some chalk marks to see if it was hitting the same ones or if it was erratic and it hit the same chambers. Off 2, on 2, off 2...
Question was if this was a timing issue. I dont know, thats why I asked. Another fact is that when I was checking all this I wasn't going through the chambers fast, I used the normal speed as well as slowly cocking the hammer back.

When the hammer hits the nipple off center it is hitting the nipple to the left each time. I can grab the cylinder and roll it to my left and it will move just a tad over and lock in after the hammer is down. There is no play in the cylinder and as mentioned it hasnt had any lead shot out of it so I'm wondering if it might be a new gun issue as well.

I cleaned the gun well when I got it but never did soak it in anything to remove any cosmoline/grease that is inside the pistol. Even so, if it were something like that I don't see how that would cause an unerratic problem like this. It has been cleaned with penetrating oil and wiped down several times, just not the inside where the works are. The action seems smooth to me, just not hitting the nipples like it should be.

I'm all ears if you think you know something else it could be. Matter of fact I could film it and send you a movie in your email if need be but you will see the same thing I described if I did.

 

[Jamie C.]

That would be because it is the same chambers that the hammer is hitting off center every time.

This sounds like the teeth/ratchet on the back of the cylinder is cut wrong on two chambers.

A new cylinder might be the quickest/cheapest fix if that's the case.


J.C.

 

[mykeal]

I've come to the same conclusion as JamieC: there are burrs in the ratchet teeth on the back of the cylinder. Fixable with a needle file or (very, very carefully!) with a Dremel tool. This is a new gun problem and probably will fix itself over time.

The same caveat as above applies: without seeing the parts interact....

 

[BDFT]

This sounds like exactly the same problem I was having with my Walker. Have you checked the hand? The hand spring prevents it from rotating the cylinder too far and allows the bolt to engage. With the hand spring weak or broken, the cylinder can be rotated past the bolt before it has time to engage. This depends on how fast you cock the hammer. On mine, if you held it muzzle down and cocked the hammer slowly it would work every time. Once I replaced the hand and spring it works perfectly every time.

 

[DuncanSA]

I agree with Jamie C. However before you even think of touching a file, consider your guarantee. If you have the option, send the gun back - a reputable dealer will replace it.

 

[Jamie C.]

If I'm understanding what I'm reading correctly, the gun has 2 chambers that lock where they're supposed to, and four that come up short of lock-up.

If that's the case, then it's probably not burrs on the teeth, but two teeth that are cut too deep/too far. In other words, it's the two chambers that seem to be working properly that are wrong.

Since it's tough to put metal back, the solution is to cut the two that are currently lining up to match the other four, then install a longer hand and re-time the whole works.

Since I don't know of an easy way to verify that the teeth, bolt notches, and chambers are all in the correct positions relative to each other, I'd try buying a new cylinder and hand ( you'll need the hand, most likely, if the original one is timed to the mis-cut chambers ), and see if I couldn't get those to work properly. Or, if possible, I'd send the gun back to whoever I got it from for either repair or replacement.


J.C.

 

[whosyrdaddy]

I think Jamie C. had it right the first time. Hammer hitting left of nipple indicates cyl. rotating too far. If bolt locks up when chamber, barrel, nipple and hammer are in line, then notches are correct.

 

[Misfire99]

That would be because it is the same chambers that the hammer is hitting off center every time. I checked this with some chalk marks to see if it was hitting the same ones or if it was erratic and it hit the same chambers. Off 2, on 2, off 2...
Question was if this was a timing issue. I dont know, thats why I asked. Another fact is that when I was checking all this I wasn't going through the chambers fast, I used the normal speed as well as slowly cocking the hammer back.

This is different from your first post. Or at lest I read it differently. When I first read it it sounded like it always did two on then two off. This would mean that when the cylinder came around for the second pass the chambers that were out of time now were in time. Two on two off two on tow off. The last two were the first two but now where out of time! It wasn't clear to me that you only did one revolution of the cylinder.

If it is only one revolution of the cylinder then Jamie C. is right. But you will not be able to fix that cylinder easily. If I am reading this right and the nipple is to far to the left it means that that tooth on the back of the cylinder for that chamber has been cut to far making it impossible for that chamber to index. There is a way to fix it if you are adventurous. You need to install a longer hand that makes the out of time chambers in time. This will make the chamber that now line up go to far. You then use a triangular stone to make the tooth on the back of the chamber deeper. Remember a little cutting here goes a long way. With the fitting of the new hand and the work on the chamber teeth this is a good day and a half to two day job. With lots of eye strain. I would start with a different cylinder and see if that fixes the problem. If you are lucky and have a good relationship with a local dealer he might let you try a different cylinder from another pistol just to check the timing. Then if it works buy another cylinder. If it doesn't work you still might be better off getting a new cylinder and fit a new hand to make it work.

What I bet happened is when the hand was fit the smith only checked the first two chambers, and I'm sure it was just by accident that it was the first two chambers. But when he fit it for the first chamber he just cocked it once and saw it was in time then shipped it. Time is money you know.

It reminds me of the panther and the rabbit. They both met a a river and wanted to get across. The panther told the rabbit to climb on his back and he would carry him across. The rabbit said he was afraid that the panther would eat him. The panther said no he wouldn't. SO the rabbit jumped on the back of the panther and they swan across. But when they got to the other side the panther started to eat the rabbit. The rabbit said you promised not to eat me. The panther replied I'm sorry it's just in my nature. I know I come across as being somewhat harsh on line. I don't mean to it's just in my nature.

 

[Tru Griff]

You know what really ticks me off about this whole thing is the fact that when I first got my pistol from DixieGunWorks I looked it over and even though it was supposed to have the unfinished look it was actually rusty on small areas including the top of the barrel.

I wasn't happy with it at all so I drove up to DGW and showed them the problem and got another one which is the one I have now. This was sometime last year so the gun is new as far as shooting it goes but warranty wise I think I'm out of luck. After reading everyones helpful tips and not knowing the mechanics to these C&B pistols, I think another trip to DGW is in order.

I mess around with a couple of 50 plus yr old vehicles and there's a time when you have to let "those that know" take over. I think this is one of those times. I could try doing it myself but with something like this I dont want to have to second guess anything. Get it done right the first time and be done with it.

Just wanted to say thank you all for the information and it will be saved just incase I get brave enough down the road to start meddling with my own C&B pistols.

 

[scrat]

Tru GRIT take a look at this. for timing

http://www.blackpowderrevolver.net/page129.html


For yours your going to look for machining flaws. These may need to be lightly filed down. May have a burr in the hand spring

 

[1KPerDay]

Does anyone know of a REPUTABLE smith that works on cap/ball revolvers? I'd like to start shooting my old italian replicas but they're badly out of time. And no, I'm not smart enough to do it myself.