Piston Driven AR: What should I buy?
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benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
If I were in the market for a piston gun, I'd personally lean toward one designed from the ground up for a piston, e.g. the FN SCAR. Piston AR's necessarily involve some compromises in order to put a piston into a design optimized for direct impingement. However, some companies do handle those compromises better than others.
I would lean toward a company that looks like it's going to be around a while; since most piston AR's are proprietary designs, if you buy one from an upstart company that subsequently goes out of business, you are orphaned as far as repair parts go.
I would lean toward a company that looks like it's going to be around a while; since most piston AR's are proprietary designs, if you buy one from an upstart company that subsequently goes out of business, you are orphaned as far as repair parts go.
longdayjake
Member
I have a little experience with the SR556 and though I really like how clean it stays, there are also some downsides to it. First, piston systems, aside from being cleaner, offer no advantage whatsoever in a semi auto gun. Second, the carrier wear on the buffer tube requires that the buffer tube be replaced every 5000-7000 rounds. Though I am sure that if you can afford to shoot that much then you can afford a new tube. Its just one thing that the DI system doesn't cause. Anyway, the ruger is a fine rifle. I like all the chromed parts. I HATE their fake flash hider. I guess its all about what floats your boat.
boricua9mm
Member
I agree with benEzra on this. Pistons that are shoe-horned into the AR framework seem to be more of a stop-gap solution for those using short barrels and lots of suppressed fire. You're then stuck with the fixed receiver extension tube and the carrier tilt phenomenon that is associated with it. You've also landed yourself a non-standard bolt carrier group to go along with it.
The standard DI AR15 is a great platform, but it really is the only direct gas design out there right now. Shoving a piston in there has not proven to be the right answer. If one absolutely needs a piston gun then just about any other rifle/carbine would do, with the exception of roller-locked weapons.
The standard DI AR15 is a great platform, but it really is the only direct gas design out there right now. Shoving a piston in there has not proven to be the right answer. If one absolutely needs a piston gun then just about any other rifle/carbine would do, with the exception of roller-locked weapons.
RobMoore
Member
I don't have any inside scoop on the gun, but the episode/commercial for the S&W M&P15 on "Shooting USA" mentioned it being a piston system.
Tommygunn
Member
+1! They were designed with a piston. Derived somewhat from the AK design, they have AK reliability.dgjester said:
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
The regular M&P15 is a DI gun, like most AR's. The M&P15PS and M&P15PSX are the piston variants.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/01/23/sw-mp15-ps-and-psx-piston-ar-15/
Personally, I prefer a well-set-up DI AR over a piston system, but certainly won't knock anyone who prefers differently.
rodensouth
Member
Has anyone handled the new RRA "Piston Drive System" carbine?
It appears the spring is around the piston, so you can have a folder-stock with familiar AR controls.
I'm definitely not suggesting which is the best, because I'm not qualified, but hoped those in the know would chime in.
It looks pretty cool, but might not have all the bugs worked out.
It appears the spring is around the piston, so you can have a folder-stock with familiar AR controls.
I'm definitely not suggesting which is the best, because I'm not qualified, but hoped those in the know would chime in.
It looks pretty cool, but might not have all the bugs worked out.
crossrhodes
Member
My 2 cents
I would think the Ruger or the Stag if you don't want to break the bank. But as stated by some one else. So many pistons versions out there and no interchange ability like the DI system. I still like the DI and had no real problems with it....Just clean your damn weapon Marine and shut the hell up.LOL Sorry. I just hadn't had the opportunity to sat that for years...I just couldn't help myself.
I would think the Ruger or the Stag if you don't want to break the bank. But as stated by some one else. So many pistons versions out there and no interchange ability like the DI system. I still like the DI and had no real problems with it....Just clean your damn weapon Marine and shut the hell up.LOL Sorry. I just hadn't had the opportunity to sat that for years...I just couldn't help myself.
I wanted a 6.8spc rifle, most of them were in AR platforms but I had a negative opinion of DI systems.
So I went looking at the piston driven options out there and had decided upon the Robinson Arms XCR, but they were much more expensive than DI designs, all of the piston variants were at least $400 more.
I started researching DI systems more and realized that they've worked pretty good for a long time now. They may have weaknesses under certain conditions that a piston may not, but those particular conditions aren't present constantly, especially if the owner does his part.
So I went with a Rock River rifle and have had zero problems with it so far, it's been very accurate and the recoil is a non-issue.
For me, I just couldn't justify the cost when the DI guns seem to work just fine, of course one should buy from a reputable manufacturer.
Maybe less than ideal quality control from a few manufacturers has contributed to the bad rap DIs have gotten over time(?)
So I went looking at the piston driven options out there and had decided upon the Robinson Arms XCR, but they were much more expensive than DI designs, all of the piston variants were at least $400 more.
I started researching DI systems more and realized that they've worked pretty good for a long time now. They may have weaknesses under certain conditions that a piston may not, but those particular conditions aren't present constantly, especially if the owner does his part.
So I went with a Rock River rifle and have had zero problems with it so far, it's been very accurate and the recoil is a non-issue.
For me, I just couldn't justify the cost when the DI guns seem to work just fine, of course one should buy from a reputable manufacturer.
Maybe less than ideal quality control from a few manufacturers has contributed to the bad rap DIs have gotten over time(?)
If you must have a piston AR (I think DI are better AR's) then go with LWRC or maybe POF (POF has some nice fluted barrels).
I would also suggest looking at the Robinson Arms XCR, the SCAR is a good choice just harder to find and more expensive.
I would also suggest looking at the Robinson Arms XCR, the SCAR is a good choice just harder to find and more expensive.
I personally don't mind the DI as it functions fine, is much less expensive, and has thorough industry support. If I was to do a piston, I would be leaning towards these:
http://www.adxtactical.com/store/pc/home.asp
I like the long stroke piston concept rather than short, and they have partnered with another company (PWS) to make the parts issue less problematic (for now)
http://www.adxtactical.com/store/pc/home.asp
I like the long stroke piston concept rather than short, and they have partnered with another company (PWS) to make the parts issue less problematic (for now)
migkillertwo
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can I first ask why you feel the need for a piston-driven AR? They're more expensive and they don't cycle all types of ammo. The problems with Direct impingement rifles are way overblown by the media and defense contractors. You will never see the advantages of the piston system over the DI system as a civilian, even when you are in a defensive encounter. All you might see are the disadvantages which include:
1) COST! From what I've seen, piston guns cost 2/3 more than comparable DI guns.
2) Weight. Those extra components add quite a bit of weight, and up front which is where you dont want it
3) inability to cycle Wolf ammo. Wolf is underpowered, which is one reason it is inexpensive. Piston guns require more gas from the gas port to fully cycle the action. Thus, you will get short strokes with wolf.
4) Very hot gas port. While the BCG doesn't heat up as quickly, the gas port gets very very hot.
5) Difficulty with cleaning the gas block.
Which brings me to my next point; There's always some powder residue getting into the receiver and the bolt carrier group from the chamber when the shells are extracted. You'll still have to clean your BCG even with a piston driven AR, which greatly negates the touted advantages of the Piston system.
All that said, I say that you are much better off saving some money and getting a Direct impingement AR *cough* Spikes Tactical ST-15 LE *cough* and spending the rest of the money on mags, ammo, and a quality optic.
BTW, with the price difference between the Spikes and the Ruger SR556, I'll bet that you can get an Aimpoint with a LaRue QD mount
1) COST! From what I've seen, piston guns cost 2/3 more than comparable DI guns.
2) Weight. Those extra components add quite a bit of weight, and up front which is where you dont want it
3) inability to cycle Wolf ammo. Wolf is underpowered, which is one reason it is inexpensive. Piston guns require more gas from the gas port to fully cycle the action. Thus, you will get short strokes with wolf.
4) Very hot gas port. While the BCG doesn't heat up as quickly, the gas port gets very very hot.
5) Difficulty with cleaning the gas block.
Which brings me to my next point; There's always some powder residue getting into the receiver and the bolt carrier group from the chamber when the shells are extracted. You'll still have to clean your BCG even with a piston driven AR, which greatly negates the touted advantages of the Piston system.
All that said, I say that you are much better off saving some money and getting a Direct impingement AR *cough* Spikes Tactical ST-15 LE *cough* and spending the rest of the money on mags, ammo, and a quality optic.
BTW, with the price difference between the Spikes and the Ruger SR556, I'll bet that you can get an Aimpoint with a LaRue QD mount
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
There are no problems with the stamp from the standpoint of Florida law; legally a semiauto-only AR with a barrel 16" or longer is an ordinary civilian rifle in Florida (and anywhere else except a few far-out jurisdictions like California and New Jersey), regardless of what some manufacturer may stamp on it.
Having said that, if you want Colt-like quality without the wierd stamp, look at Noveske, Bravo Company, LM&T, Daniel Defense, perhaps Spike's, etc. They all make very, very good AR's.
If I were in the market right now for an AR, I'd be looking hard at a Bravo Company 16" midlength, I think, but there are many good choices.
srkavanagh6621
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POF P-15 they aresome nice guns check them out!
Prion
Member
DI!
Carter
Member
I have an XCR, which was around $1710. I love it too death. It has great accuracy and ergo's. It also has less perceived recoil than a standard AR. My friend who owns a BCM agrees with me on that.
It is totally reliable. The company, I'll be honest, isn't. They take forever to process anything and will tell you a shipping date four different times before it finally ships. My experience anyways.
You can customize it any way you want as well.
Since it has an improved AK piston system cleaning is a breeze too. It will eat any ammo you feed it: wolf, brown bear, silver bear, w/e. Just break it in with American Eagle.
I don't mind a DI gun, but I prefer to have a piston. Just my feelings on the matter.
It is totally reliable. The company, I'll be honest, isn't. They take forever to process anything and will tell you a shipping date four different times before it finally ships. My experience anyways.
You can customize it any way you want as well.
Since it has an improved AK piston system cleaning is a breeze too. It will eat any ammo you feed it: wolf, brown bear, silver bear, w/e. Just break it in with American Eagle.
I don't mind a DI gun, but I prefer to have a piston. Just my feelings on the matter.
Carter
Member
The XCR feels plenty light to me. I'm of average build and don't like a heavy rifle. It is just right IMO.
RA thinks if their rifle can't shoot wolf than its broke. Its what they test fire the rifle with. SO no short stroking.
Also, the upper breaks down 100% on the user level with just one tool. Cleaning it is simple. Not so with other piston guns. It has an adjustable piston for firing wolf or high pressure ammo and a suppressor setting.
Problems solved. Go purchase and enjoy.
Personally I've never understood this "pistons are cleaner" thing. In my limited experience with the M1A, Sig 556, and AK 74, the piston just means you're scrubbing out the gas block, piston, and gas tube instead of the bolt carrier and bolt. The ad I saw the other day for the Sig 556 even said something about being self cleaning; I've got about 500 rounds through mine so far and I have to scrub out the gas block at the very least every time I shoot it, otherwise the gunk builds up and makes it a b*tch to get the thing off to clean it later. Ditto on the M1A, I didn't realize I needed to scrub the gas plug and piston every time I shot it and that thing was a b*tch to get off when I finally did clean it. In the AK 74's case I'm shooting Russian surplus so I have to clean it out really, really good every time I shoot it as soon as I shoot it.
More weight up front isn't a bad thing if you're mostly doing slow aimed firing at the range though. Everyone I've let shoot that Sig 556 has said that the weight up front noticeably cuts down on recoil and muzzle rise.
More weight up front isn't a bad thing if you're mostly doing slow aimed firing at the range though. Everyone I've let shoot that Sig 556 has said that the weight up front noticeably cuts down on recoil and muzzle rise.
Z-Michigan
Member
Strong agreement.
If you want an AR, get a DI model, there are 5+ top quality companies to look at (Colt, BCM, DD, LMT, Noveske, just for starters) and 10+ companies that are nearly as good and better than 99.9% of us need.
If you want a piston, get an FAL or M1A or AKM.... or if you want a modern .223 piston gun, I would vote for the SCAR, followed by the XCR and, perhaps, (gasp!) the Shrubmaster ACR if you really like paying way too much for basically OK stuff.
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