Piston vs Gas Impingement

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Once there becomes a military standard Ill buy one. Until then the only one Id likely buy would be the HK. Its been tried and passed military usage and even adopted in limited numbers. But HK developed the rifle from the ground up to be a piston. The upper receiver was made larger to accommodate the piston.

Mt departments SWAT team adopted the POF for a few years. They liked the accuracy of the rifles but they just didn't hold up to heavy use.
 
Barrett makes the REC7. It is designed as a piston gun with Barrett designed bolt and anti-tilt bolt carrier, two position gas block setting (standard / suppressed) - and the gas block and piston are self-cleaning.

I took mine apart after shooting 5,000 rounds and wiped the piston with carbon cleaner and a white cloth was only slightly grey. Since then, I've never take the piston out of the rifle again.

The bolt and carrier are NP3 coated and the most I've ever done to clean the gun is wipe the bolt off using a cloth and some Shooter's Choice or Gunzilla cleaner.

As for weight, the REC7 piston and rod weight 3.8 ounces. If you can't lift an additional 3.8 ounces - workout or take off one of the "accessories" you've attached to the gun...

Nice rifle and will shoot <MOA at 100 yards. I've tested it at my gun club in the 100 yard tunnel and the gun will do MOA or better depending on whether you're using cheap ammunition or really cheap ammunition.

It's a piston design - it works just fine.
 
I now own a Stag Model 8 Piston and love it. Very easy to clean. I never liked cleaning my old DI rifles.

Will
 
I think most people would be better served to buy a DI of similar quality and take the money savings and apply that towards a firearm class.
 
What DI fanboys don't get is that a piston rifle is far easier to clean than DI.
How?

DI procedure: Pop out and disassemble bolt carrier group, wipe dirty oil off of parts and inside receiver with cloth, re-wet with oil, reassemble.

As to whether piston systems get gas in the receiver, I shot a Romanian 7.62x39mm AK for years and it most definitely got powder residue in the receiver, at least as much as my AR does. Most of it probably comes from case blow-by during extraction, but an AK also blows gases and powder residue into the receiver through the gas piston tube. It's no big deal on either platform, though; just wipe it off, unless you're trying to run it dry, in which case you have to go the solvents-and-scrape route.
 
My only experience with a piston was a ruger 762. It recoiled harder than any other 308 ar I shot, which was at least 4 different brands. The bulky gas block was easy to burn yourself on, and to clean it you had to work the adjuster out of the front of the gas block by rotating back and forth while trying to pull it out until you finally broke of enough carbon deposits that it would come out. I still had to wipe junk out of the inside of the reciever. It was the least favorite rifle I had and the fastest to get sold. Plus it the front weight made it feel heavier than it was. I have run hundreds of rounds of dirty steel case without even reoiling and only had one malfunction due to the lack of lube. I dont see the benefits of the whole piston setup. I figure if I'm at the point of worrying about firing 1,000 rounds between cleanings in a firefight, im in a world of crap and the gas system of my rifle is the least of my problems.
 
That Ruger piston issue is exactly why the Garand had to be kept clean. Fail to bother and it would get stuck in the gas cylinder, requiring an armorer to repair it. So NCO's had to double down on regular cleaning as the remedy.

Tearing down the Garand gas cylinder mechanism isn't field easy. That left the soldier between a rock and a hard place - ignore it and it would jam in the gas cylinder, netting you the displeasure of the support chain and your supervisor, tear it down and you lost a half hour or more of your time and risked the loss of critical parts.

The M14 had to make changes in the gas cylinder to improve that, but the difference was incremental. It just got a little better.

On the other hand, DI fanboys know for a fact, under the clock, that a small child can tear down a M16 and reassemble it in literally seconds. Why do piston fanboys equate level of difficulty with superiority? The gas cylinder in the M16 is - again - almost too easy to get to. And the focus on getting it clean is misplaced - again - as ammo, magazines, and the operator are the top three causes of failure.

Don't mag dump a full combat load thru the weapon - which is contrary to doctrine, training, and lessons learned - the M16 works fine. It's not a squad auto machine gun, and the concept it can be abused in that role is where most users start having difficulties. It's one of the reasons the three shot trigger group was installed - to slow the rate of fire - along with the fact that the 3 round was likely rising off target and only had 50% effectiveness.

There is far more to using a firearm in combat than where the piston is located. DI haters love to focus on it being in the Bolt Carrier Group, but the reality is that for any modern design claimed to be superior, it's a clone of the M16 in almost every other significant feature. About the only advancement is the use of a polymer lower - the new age battle rifle owner is basically choosing to shoot what amounts to a Glock carbine but talking about the piston location as the difference. I will submit that it's smoke and mirrors on their part. The ARX, SCAR, and others are nice rifles, but they all use M16 control layouts, M16 magazines, and most importantly, use a barrel extension. Stoner's contribution in that regard has been unique and influenced civilian designs, too.

If anyone want's an "advanced" combat rifle, put the piston wherever you want. But I challenge you to refrain from using any other feature of the M16 to achieve a superior design. Good luck, as none of the newer guns being adopted seem to be able to do that.
 
In my experience, no. My DI rifles are just as reliable as my piston rifle. The benefit of the piston rifle is when using a suppressor. They do run cooler and there is less fouling in the action. If that is really important to you, then get a piston.

If your set on getting a piston rifle, I would recommend going with a rifle that was designed/built as a piston rifle.

The piston rifles are heavier than a similar DI. There have also been some speculation that DI is more inherently accurate than piston. If a piece of the piston system breaks at some point, it will be a bit more difficult to fix because your local pro shop probably wont have the right assembly.....but they will probably have plenty of DI parts.

what brand piston rifle ?

agree !

how much heavier ? an ounce or two ?
 
Thoughts?

I like to keep my rifles clean ... I clean them after use which is probably the result of a whiff of OCD ... I am working on overcoming that. ;)

Direct Impingement is the only thing that I do not like about ARs and the specific reason why I stopped building them (for my use) about 10 years ago ... otherwise I would probably have a dozen by now, instead of 3.

The result was that I rarely shoot my ARs.

If I were looking to own a Piston AR, I would almost-certainly not try to retrofit one of my 3 (although, I must confess that I have not recently researched the available options).

I would most likely buy a properly-designed, completely-assembled Upper or, if I found a great deal on a well-reviewed model, an entire rifle.

FWIW.
 
I have DI (BCM) and GP (Huldra) middys both setup exactly the same.
Shooting side by side I can hardly tell much of a difference, but if I did rank them in different catagories it would be:

Weight = DI
Gas/oil fumes = GP
Accuracy = about equal
Cleaning = GP
Parts availability = DI
Reliability = both 100%
Receiver wear = DI
Suppressor setting = GP
Recoil = about equal
Cost = about the same

If I could only keep one, probably the DI just because of parts commonality.
 
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That Ruger piston issue is exactly why the Garand had to be kept clean. Fail to bother and it would get stuck in the gas cylinder, requiring an armorer to repair it. So NCO's had to double down on regular cleaning as the remedy.
Funny, it all the thousands of rounds I have put through my M1 and M14, I only took the gas cylinder apart once or twice on each of them, and then just wiped them off...

I have noticed that both side of the "DI vs Piston" debate tend to exaggerate the oppositions weaknesses and overstate their own attributes.

I have both, and find both equal in their own ways...
 
That's true, most folks will never notice a difference. Then why add it?
 
I have two push rod ARs (POF) and two DGI ARs (Bushmaster DPMS/Bushmaster hybrid) and I like/use them all. The POFs and the BM/DPMS are always shot suppressed and the POFs are WAY easier to clean. All of them are accurate and reliable.
 
1) All ARs have a piston. It's commonly located either in the gas block or the carrier. Pistons located in the gas block are smaller, are run without lube and exposed to hotter gasses and higher concentrations of carbon fouling

2) ARs are not a direct impingement system as is so commonly believed

3) It's not that gas block piston uppers are inferior to "direct gas" (as Colt calls them) uppers, it's just that gas block piston uppers aren't "all that and a bag of chips" either

4) Most gas block piston uppers that are heavier have thicker profile barrels. The only added component is the op rod and it replaces the gas tube

5) The only affect a gas block upper will have on accuracy is if the op rod changes barrel harmonics in a negative way. The bullet always clears the muzzle before any part of the action begins moving
 
How?

DI procedure: Pop out and disassemble bolt carrier group, wipe dirty oil off of parts and inside receiver with cloth, re-wet with oil, reassemble.

Really? I think you're leaving out several burned carbon scraping steps on the DI bolt Assembly. You're also forgetting about all of the crap blown all around the inside of the receiver and trigger group, not to mention the crud inside and around the gas tube and gas key of the carrier. Let's also not forget scraping of carbon fouling inside the carrier where the bolt rides. My DI rifles also tend to get fouling way back into the buffer tube, over time, which isn't exactly an easy place to clean.

Or to put it another way, all of the little areas this tool helps you clean.

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Piston.....Wipe most parts of the bolt and carrier off with a white rag and then clean the piston and hand guard off a bit. The inside of the receiver gets very little carbon fouling or grime.

As I stated, you've quite obviously never cleaned both models. I have cleaned both and the difference is very clear.
 
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Cleaning a regular AR is actually fairly simple. I long ago have up on the military white glove way of cleaning and have never had a failure resulting from fouling even after a few thousand rounds between cleanings. And even that was not terrible. Wipe down with the cleaner of your choice, CLP, maybe scrape a little carbon if I am bored or it had built up and reassemble. I mainly clean the barrel. Everything else gets wiped down, little lube and back together she goes. Really not the end of the world.

My FAL is a piston gun. I spend more time cleaning the gas nut, block, and piston then my entire AR. And if you think an AR is bad try a SAW after 4 days worth of blanks and no cleaning between firings...
 
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Really? I think you're leaving out several burned carbon scraping steps on the DI bolt Assembly. You're also forgetting about all of the crap blown all around the inside of the receiver and trigger group, not to mention the crud inside and around the gas tube and gas key of the carrier. Let's also not forget scraping of carbon fouling inside the carrier where the bolt rides. My DI rifles also tend to get fouling way back into the buffer tube, over time, which isn't exactly an easy place to clean.

Or to put it another way, all of the little areas this tool helps you clean.
Yes, really. I run it wet with a good synthetic oil (not CLP) and clean it after every few range trips (shooting mostly dirty steel-case Wolf and Tula), and the carbon wipes off with a paper towel since it's liquid, not solid. I don't own a scraping tool and have no need of one, since scraping isn't necessary; the only scrubbing I ever do is with a Q-tip, to get any oily carbon residue out of the barrel extension if I am being particularly anal. FWIW mine is a 16" Rock River midlength.

In my experience, if you have carbon concretion in a DI AR, you may be running the system too dry. I ran my AK the same way (wet, as the Russian manual says to) and had similar experience with it; carbon can't accrete when it's dissolved in a nonvolatile oil. As long as you don't let it dry out, you can wipe it off.

Forward-mounted pistons have advantages with short barrels and with supressors, but outside of those parameters, it comes down to personal preference, IMO. DI AR's are not unpleasant to maintain when they're run wet.
 
With the advent of the A5 RE, LMT Enhanced carrier & adjustable gas blocks, gas block mounted piston upper no longer have an significant advantage with SBRs & suppresors
 
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