Please define "brush gun" for me...???

Hokkmike

Hokkmike

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I know the classic definition of brush gun includes a cartridge that fires a projectile big enough that its trajectory and course is not significantly affected by trees, branches, and etc. A gun writer once wrote that such a caliber does not exist, and that all bullets are deflected to some degree by obstructions of this kind. Further, he stated "What business do hunters have making a shot where the target is not clear and 100% identifiable?" I know that I would never shoot through tree branches, bushes, or tall grass at the form or silhouette of an animal. I might well shoot a deer stepping out from behind a tree or into a visible gap between vegetation, rocks, dirt piles, or tree trunks - but not while the target is obscured. The lightest gun I have hunted with is a .223 - the heaviest, a .444 Marlin. Most would say the former is NOT a brush gun while the latter is, but I wonder.....

(one of my other silly rules is to never shoot at a running deer)
 
When I'm thinking Brush Gun, I think of the act of hunting in thick brush. I think the myth of "brush busting calibers/cartridges" has been more or less debunked. So for me it meens a short handy rifle with a low power scope, red dot or iron sights. Something I can carry in my hands all day. For me this is my Remington 700 in 358 Winchester. I have lightened the stock and the barrel is 19 inches. I would also classify my Winchester 94 in 356 Winchester as a brush rifle. This sports a receiver sight.

But this is my opinion only :) By the way, I think your self imposed rule of not shooting at running deer is an excellent idea!
 
Never subscribed to shooting through brush.

But if theres a hole clean to the target,.yeah thread the needle so to speak.

As for movers.....up close and flat travel, drill em.
1 or 2x on the scope makes it pretty easy.

However when i think brush gun......for thick stuff.... proly a peep sighted rig of shorter barrel. Keep line of sight close to the bore, for easier thread the needle.
 
stigfender said:
When I'm thinking Brush Gun, I think of the act of hunting in thick brush. I think the myth of "brush busting calibers/cartridges" has been more or less debunked. So for me it meens a short handy rifle with a low power scope, red dot or iron sights. Something I can carry in my hands all day. For me this is my Remington 700 in 358 Winchester. I have lightened the stock and the barrel is 19 inches. I would also classify my Winchester 94 in 356 Winchester as a brush rifle. This sports a receiver sight.
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Excellent observation! Most of these type threads jump ahead to what happens after the trigger is pulled. But as important are the ergonomics of being able to maneuver through thick cover without getting constantly tangled up and make a minimum of noise. Short barrels and compact scopes mounted close to the bore are two characteristics I find important. The studies that I have seen conclude that no bullet is immune to being knocked off course when it hits a stick or piece of vegetation while in flight.

@Hokkmike I think I remember that you hail from mountain laurel country, so you know what I am talking about.
 
Most ACTUAL field tests show the best "brush guns" are small caliber "lasers" which shoot a very flat trajectory and better avoid contact with leaves/branches/grass altogether.

But by and large, the myth of the brush gun is just legend. Folks then dismiss the cartridge performance - because it really doesn't matter - and instead focus on form factor and functionality of the firearm, which, at its core, hardly matters either. Sure, short range work can be done well enough with short and light rifles, and with lower powered optics, but frankly, the grass is greenest where you water it... a shooter which is well familiar with their firearm and sighting system will find game and deliver shots quickly just as easily with a longer and heavier firearm and larger optic (hard to beat a huge field of view) as they would with a less familiar qualified "brush gun."

I don't take shots I can't make. In some instances, that might mean I pass on a short range shot when the animal is standing still but obstructed by brush. In other instances, that might mean I'm confident in taking a shot on a running deer. I've "trapped" dozens of deer with my reticle as they walk among trees - the sum of the interrupted views of the animal allows positive identification, but only a few positions would allow a bullet to find its way to the target, so I set the trap and wait; bullets are blind, meaning as far as the bullet is concerned, the deer could have been standing in the middle of an empty parking lot, as it doesn't have anything in its path, but I have to pick my firing point to know where I can slip the bullet between obstructions to allow that to happen. Equally, a bullet doesn't know when a deer is running, I just have to position my shot sufficiently ahead to let the deer run in front of the bullet.

Shooting moving targets isn't such an unattainable skill for a marksman. My son, on his 10th birthday this weekend, shot moving targets for his first time - one a conventional slider with the other two mimicking heads popping up and down behind a car, and he hit half of the shots on that stage. He's skilled behind the rifle, but he's still only 10yrs old after all, and had never previously shot a moving target... But he's trapped walking deer with the reticle, and we've practiced the skill... But he's 10yrs old... Grown men get in their own way much easier...

My "brush gun" isn't a brush gun... it's just a short barreled AR, so I can pack it in easy when we're still hunting hogs and deer, move in the brush, and still deliver sufficient power on target. Mine has a 4-16x44mm scope on top, typically dialed around 10x - I shoot with both eyes open.
 
stigfender said:
When I'm thinking Brush Gun, I think of the act of hunting in thick brush. I think the myth of "brush busting calibers/cartridges" has been more or less debunked. So for me it meens a short handy rifle with a low power scope, red dot or iron sights. Something I can carry in my hands all day. For me this is my Remington 700 in 358 Winchester. I have lightened the stock and the barrel is 19 inches. I would also classify my Winchester 94 in 356 Winchester as a brush rifle. This sports a receiver sight.

But this is my opinion only :) By the way, I think your self imposed rule of not shooting at running deer is an excellent idea!
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I'll second what you said! A short-ish barrel in a moderate (not small (think 223 rem) but not overkill (think 338 Norma Mag) either) caliber such as 308. A modern take on this would probably be a 16in 308 AR with a big chungus suppressor. 165gr Speer Soft Points would probably be a good choice.
 
Most define it as something that is handy when in areas that are hard to carry a longer or heavier firearm. Like the tight woods of central New York where you have trouble moving through. And even more seeing through. Short and light comes to mind. Others refer to calibers that shoot well though brush, I don’t think of it in that way. Not sure I believe that. Not based on anything other than my own thoughts. I think even heavy things deflect.

Lever guns come to mind. Don’t need range when you can’t see that far anyhow. Or short bolt guns like a GSR. Where you keep the safety on or half cock because a branch or twig might get caught on the trigger. I use my 1895G for this type of hunting.
 
Whenever this question comes up, seems like about every 6 months or so, I'm reminded of this article:

www.fieldandstream.com

6 Best Deer Hunting Rifles for The Big Woods

Hunting the North Country is different than any other kind of whitetail deer hunting. Here are the six best deer hunting rifles for the big woods.
www.fieldandstream.com www.fieldandstream.com

Big woods rifles are brute in performance and ballerina in design. The best rifles will fit like a shotgun so that you can shoot fast, using instinct as much as the sights. They are light and fit the hand well so you can carry them over miles of woods. A rifle also needs to be reliable and tough enough to handle the nasty weather.
Click to expand...

Hunting styles are a bit different too. Sitting in a stand can be a cold, lonely, empty pastime. It’s not unusual for a hunter to hang off a tree the entire season and not see a deer. The most successful hunters in the big woods hunt on the move. They don’t wait for the deer; they walk out and go find them. Tracking is the most productive method; still hunting a distant second.

When it comes to shooting with these hunting techniques, it’s nothing like the deer hunts you see on television. If you wait for the “perfect shot” or refuse to shoot at a running deer, you may as well lighten your load and leave your ammo home. You won’t be needing it. Shot placement is rarely perfect, so you want to drive the bullet deep.
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Here's at least one article that states IAW the authors testing the the .45-70 did a reasonable job in brush.

www.outdoorlife.com

The Best Brush Busting Bullets Put to the Test

Brush rifles and brush bullets have been a topic of conversation for decades, but how effective are they at punching through thickets?
www.outdoorlife.com www.outdoorlife.com

What’s the Best Brush Bullet and Cartridge Today? The .45/70 Gov’t​

The .45/70 outperformed everything else in penetrating brush and delivering a bullet that’s still flying straight and true—something that will surely inflate the egos of its contemporary fans. I expected the .45/70 to yield the best results simply because of the mass of the bullets, but it exceeded my expectations substantially. With extensive enough testing some other big-bore cartridges might outdo the .45/70, but when it comes to common and available brush rifles today, the .45/70 wins.

The best brush bullet in my testing was the 325-grain, .458-inch Lehigh Defense Extreme Defense bullet. It was in Black Hills Ammo’s Honey Badger factory loads, traveling at 1900 fps. These are solid copper machined bullets with a nose that’s fluted and resembles a Phillips screwdriver. The bullet is designed for zero deformation, and to penetrate deeply. The fluting at the tip is designed to cause cavitation and a wound channel like expanding bullets. I’ve seen bears shot with them, and they are formidable. This load had an average deflection of only 0.63 inches, without a single key-holed bullet in 15 total shots.
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Me? I just prefer lighter more compact carbines with LPVOs on them. I've also shot a few running deer, once jumped, shouting at them to stop, hasn't worked all that well.
 
My definition:

A short, handy, light carbine type rifle that’s easy to carry through thick woods and heavy undergrowth (i.e. brush) usually chambered in an effective but shorter range caliber due to the shorter distances that present themselves given the aforementioned terrain
 
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My two favorite brush rifles are in .35Rem: Marlin 336T and Remington 600 Mohawk. But more often I use a 7-1/2” Super Blackhawk .44Mag or a 6-1/2” Blackhawk .357Mag, both loaded with heavy for caliber bullets moving at midrange velocity. I want a through shot so “expansion” to me is a negative. Brush down here means kudzu, palmetto, and wild blackberry thickets. You got to do the high step to keep from getting tripped by vines but keep an eye on the ground in front of you because rattlers get annoyed when you step on them. Something you can run quickly with is a big bonus in case you disturb a yellow jackets nest. They’re meaner than the rattlers.
 
short overall length makes for a brush gun in my mind, swinging on a walking deer or elk in the thick stuff is tough when the barrel keeps bumping into stuff. I like carbines less than three feet long for thick stuff, and sleek designs that don't snag up. Having your body be the biggest thing to move through a hole in the brush is nice. My AR-15 SBR is great for this, as is all my 18" barreled single shots. And my Ruger American ranch was purchased for use as a brush gun.

As to cartridge and caliber, I want something that'll stop the critter I'm hunting very quickly, because blood trails through brush are almost impossible to find. So something with some umpf to it. I do use the 7.62x39 for this job regularly, but it's kind of the bottom end, I really like a shotgun slug or 45-70 or 458 socom for this. Any short action cartridge 6mm and up will work with the right bullets.
I also use a 44 mag redhawk 7.5" for this job. It just works.
 
I'll take an accurate, flat shooting rifle with a scope to avoid hitting brush. Short barrels are easier to maneuver through the thick stuff and are less cumbersome if shooting from a blind. Rapid fire isn't important, but something quick to the shoulder may be.

Everything that hits brush will deflect but I have seen some testing showing that FMJ round nose bullets might deflect a little less. Pointed bullets have most of their mass in the rear of the bullet and will become unstable easier if they hit brush. A RN bullet has more weight forward and will be harder to destabilize.

Caliber, nor velocity matters. Some guys think a 35-45 caliber bullet at 2000 fps or less is better. The testing I saw showed a 150 gr RN fired from a 270 @ 3000 fps was just as good as a 200 gr 35 Rem @ 1800 fps.

And only with FMJ. The exposed lead tips on RN bullets are more likely to deform on contact with even light brush and become unstable.

The problem with testing bullets through brush is that nothing is repeatable. Every shot will impact brush differently and meaningful data is hard to get. I could test a dozen different cartridges and bullet combos today and get one set of results. Testing the exact same cartridges and bullets tomorrow and the results could be very different.

The best option is simply to avoid hitting brush.
 
For me, it is a compact rifle that is inherently "pointable". By this I mean that if I am focused on a particular spot, when I raise the rifle to my shoulder the sights are resting exactly on that point. My three rifles that I know fit this description are my Ruger No. 1 RSI in 30-06 and a Burris 4x Signature, a Winchester Model 94 Trapper in 30-30 with an aperture sight, and a Marlin 336 BL in 30-30 with a 2.5x Leupold shotgun scope. I have hopes for the Contender rifle I just put together, but have not proven it in the field (errr, I haven't broken the barrel in yet).

For this application (and the distances involved, the power thing is mostly irrelevant. To date (the last 60 years or so), my attempts to shoot through brush have had decidedly mixed results. The five times I can specifically recall doing this have resulted in three deer, three shattered mesquite trees (one deer was killed by mesquite shards severing an artery), one red berry juniper frond (about 1 mm in diameter) almost severed (but it very slightly deflected a 180 gr bullet from a 300 Weatherby so that it slightly keyholed before hitting the deer exactly in the breadbasket), and a badly mangled juniper stump (by a 30-40 Krag with my 165 gr handloads).

My conclusions? 1. Don't count on yourself or the rifle to be able to shoot through brush. A rifle zeroed for 200 yards is a little off at close range. And mesquites will jump in the way of bullets if they sense one is in the area. 2. If you are carrying a rifle in heavy brush, carry one that you almost don't have to use the sights (and get comfortable enough with it to be able to shoot it instinctively). For this, a 22 in a similar form factor is useful.
 
Hokkmike said:
. . . Further, he stated "What business do hunters have making a shot where the target is not clear and 100% identifiable?" . . . . .
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Yes. This ^ ^ ^ ^ right there

Used to be that the shooting commandments stated-
Be absolutely sure of your
target and what lies beyond

Seems like a good many people
these days just blast away instead
of passing on a marginal shot
and don't make sure of what's
behind the intended target
 
Laphroaig said:
Excellent observation! Most of these type threads jump ahead to what happens after the trigger is pulled. But as important are the ergonomics of being able to maneuver through thick cover without getting constantly tangled up and make a minimum of noise. Short barrels and compact scopes mounted close to the bore are two characteristics I find important. The studies that I have seen conclude that no bullet is immune to being knocked off course when it hits a stick or piece of vegetation while in flight.

@Hokkmike I think I remember that you hail from mountain laurel country, so you know what I am talking about.
Click to expand...
Most of my hunting is in C3.
 
Hokkmike said:
I know the classic definition of brush gun includes a cartridge that fires a projectile big enough that its trajectory and course is not significantly affected by trees, branches, and etc. A gun writer once wrote that such a caliber does not exist, and that all bullets are deflected to some degree by obstructions of this kind.
Click to expand...
And they are correct, if it hits anything it better be very close to the target animal. Naturally big and heavy has a better chance, but they all get deflected some if they hit anything.
 
Never shoot through brush
2 reasons
#1 You can’t clearly see your target . You could shoot someone
#2 bullets can and will be deflected.. so a bullet will not be going where you expect it to

A Brush Gun is a carbine that is easier to maneuver in brush …
My hunting rifle …30-30 IMG_0201.jpeg
 
Brush gun (n): the wood stock is laminated from small trees (brush) to make a larger piece of wood that can thus be shaped into a gun stock.
 
When I was a kid, I remember two WWII vets trading tales about a German they couldn't quite hit, for a twig that kept deflecting their shots. I don't recall if Fritz ever met his fate.
Brush gun, short, handy, useful cartridge. The growth in 'straight wall' areas, closer to urban centers, will bring pistol calibers and such to greater popularity.
Personally, a 16" M94 Marlin, in .44 Mag, has served me well in Westsylvania deer woods. There's a limit how far you can see.
No, you shouldn't be shooting through stuff.
Moon
 
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