Cosmoline
Member
No, that's not a bubba. In fact I keep a boyds stock around to use as my field clothes for Mosins that have exceptionally nice stocks. You can do all kinds of funky things with the rifles without permanently altering them.
please don't bubba a mil-surp gun
- Thread starter kungfuhippie
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No, that's not a bubba. In fact I keep a boyds stock around to use as my field clothes for Mosins that have exceptionally nice stocks. You can do all kinds of funky things with the rifles without permanently altering them.
Hokkmike
Member
hmmm, Bubba as a verb? That is kind of cool. But not me. I love mipsurp - but don't sporterize it!
4fingermick
Member
I think what is a shame is a sporterising a rifle in complete milsup trim when there are heaps of already chopped up rifles. A guy who lives in my town was in the shop buying a mint No1Mk111* when I was there one day. He paid big dollars for it as it was in excellent dollars ($AU400, which is pretty much top dollar for these, but it was goodddddddddd!). He was really pleased with himself. I saw him at the range a few weeks later and he had cut off the stock and bubbared it bad. I said why did you not buy one of the sporters at teh shop at the time? There was one with a reasonable 3-9x scope, and fiberglass stock for $350 which was really a good rifle and a sporterised one with a good barrel for $200 and various sporters ranging down to about $80.
He said he didn't notice them.
When asked what he'd with the bits he cut off and the hand guard (which were walnut) he said 'Oh, I threw them out, didn't need them.:banghead: I wandered off to the other end of the range
He said he didn't notice them.
When asked what he'd with the bits he cut off and the hand guard (which were walnut) he said 'Oh, I threw them out, didn't need them.:banghead: I wandered off to the other end of the rangei'm new to milsurps (and gun ownership in general for that matter), and have been checking out several forums for info both general and specific to the one i have so far (Arisaka 99). i see this issue among the most discussed on all forums.
i realize we all have our own reasons for owning/collecting, and i respect everyone's individual views, but i have some questions and would be interested in hearing opinions on the philisophical aspects.
granted, some types of guns (ie. M1 Garand) may be historically significant, but does that make each of the millions of individual examples significant? should they all be considered "collectors' items" irrespective of condition or individual accomplishment? (by individual accomplishment, i mean is it the gun that killed Gen. So-and-so, or was it issued to the cook at batallion HQ and never fired in anger)
when a veteran gets a civilian job after discharge, they are not expected to continue wearing their uniform. yet if a milsurp rifle finds itself in an active civilian role, many seem to feel it's wrong for it to be adapted to better meet current circumstances. why is it ok for the man to change, but not the tool? BTW, i'm not a "change for the sake of change" guy..... full stock or sporter don't make a difference to the deer, i figure.
do any of you in the hardcore "keep it original" camp fire your collectibles? if so, doesn't that add wear and degrade it from its last military condition? is a time capsule still a time capsule if it's not in stasis?
oh, and to kungfuhippie - if you want to trade me one of those new .308's you started this thread with, so i won't be tempted to bubba my free Arisaka..........
i realize we all have our own reasons for owning/collecting, and i respect everyone's individual views, but i have some questions and would be interested in hearing opinions on the philisophical aspects.
granted, some types of guns (ie. M1 Garand) may be historically significant, but does that make each of the millions of individual examples significant? should they all be considered "collectors' items" irrespective of condition or individual accomplishment? (by individual accomplishment, i mean is it the gun that killed Gen. So-and-so, or was it issued to the cook at batallion HQ and never fired in anger)
when a veteran gets a civilian job after discharge, they are not expected to continue wearing their uniform. yet if a milsurp rifle finds itself in an active civilian role, many seem to feel it's wrong for it to be adapted to better meet current circumstances. why is it ok for the man to change, but not the tool? BTW, i'm not a "change for the sake of change" guy..... full stock or sporter don't make a difference to the deer, i figure.
do any of you in the hardcore "keep it original" camp fire your collectibles? if so, doesn't that add wear and degrade it from its last military condition? is a time capsule still a time capsule if it's not in stasis?
oh, and to kungfuhippie - if you want to trade me one of those new .308's you started this thread with, so i won't be tempted to bubba my free Arisaka..........
thereisnospoon
Member
Not everyone who "hacks" up a "precious" mil-surp is a "bubba with a six pack in his belly"...what a unfounded, sterotypical thing to say.
Military Surplus weapons are just that; surplus. While some supplies of rifles are dwindling, most of the rifles people are modifying aren't rare collectibles-they are SURPLUS!
This is like the whole toilet seat up toilet seat down thing... :banghead:
Clipper
Member
I enjoy modifying them...Not only does it give me a more useful rifle, but I get the added enjoyment of inflaming the snobs... 
Sniper X
Member
I wonder why this is refered to as "Bubb'ing a gun" because all rednecks I know (and I am one so I know a lot of rednecks!) leave their rifles sporter alone save for a scope if any, and maybe a sling. But none I know have a mil surp rifle either except one who has a Mauser in 7or 8mm whatever it is.
Cosmoline
Member
You raise some good points, and I'll try to summarize my position on the matter.
First of all, you don't know what you don't know. And assumption is the mother of all [screw]-ups. What you assume is a $60 firearm might be a $600 firearm because of nothing more than a rare stamp. For example, about five years back I saw a cut up Eddystone Enfield with an "EK" on the stock, still visible under the sloppy true-oil. Or what you think is a cheapo Mosin-Nagant for a project is actually a rare Finnish subtype. I have an "F" stamp M-27 that some previous owner hacked to bits because he assumed it was a common "commie" rifle. I have a long list of such mistakes, including an exceedingly rare Mannlicher-Schoenauer for the Greek Navy with a two digit SN that had been hacked to bits and mangled in an effort to make it something the shooter was more comfortable with. There's an enormous amount we don't know about these rifles. What you assume is worthless, or what is of little value on today's market may be very rare tomorrow.
Second, there's no point to it anymore. Until the 1950's or later, bolt action rifles were pretty expensive items to buy new. It was cheaper by far to get one of the many surplus rifles. These days you can go buy a used Savage or Ruger bolt action, all ready for a scope or even with a scope, for three bills or less. These will serve you well as a standard scoped hunting rifle. To buy a $200 mil surp and try to hack it into some twisted version of a remchester will cost you hundreds of dollars and you'll end up with a piece of junk.
Third, there is no need to remove the irons, bend the bolt and try to force a big scope on the receiver to make it a viable hunting rifle. Lots of folks hunt with intact surplus rifles. If left alone they're tough as nails and immune to many of the problems you'll find with modern scoped rifles. If you take the time to learn how to use them, and how to use tangent sights, you will discover a great deal about rifle shooting you may never have known otherwise.
Fourth, if you really want a standard sightless bolt action rifle, GET ONE. Don't mangle the surplus rifle and ruin it for yourself and everyone else. Unless you're one of those anti-gun freaks who enjoys hacking rifles as an artistic statement, there's no point to home sporterizing.
Finally, in response to this point:
I have to laugh a bit. The only firearms I'd suggest keeping locked away are ultra-rare ones in fragile condition, such as antique Winchesters*. And I have no interest in owning them. If left intact, surplus war rifles are tougher than you or I will ever be. They can take the abuse, and shooting them or even taking them afield isn't going to hurt them. They're designed to be used to beat the life out of an enemy! Try that with your Remchester. If you hack them, you make them weaker and more vulnerable.
Basically, my problem isn't so much with loss of money or value, but with the rank ignorance displayed by so many American rifle shooters. They got it into their minds somewhere along the line that the only good hunting rifle has no iron sights, a bent bolt, a half stock with a big pistol grip and a big scope. Any rifle that doesn't conform to this vision must be hacked into conformity. It's a bizarre narrow-minded attitude and it's just selling us short. Instead of getting out the hack saw, take the time to learn to appreciate and use the war rifle on its own terms. Learn how to use the iron sights. Grow a little stronger and learn how to carry the extra few pounds of hardwood. You will find that these rifles are not inferior to modern ones at all, and that the designs you initially thought were weird actually work exceptionally well. You can learn to appreciate the speed of an SMLE or the fine balance of a Swedish Mauser. The toughness of a Mosin or Mauser '98 or the accuracy of a Schmidt-Rubin. It's a whole fascinating world full of interesting ballistics and over a century of history. Why ruin all that by hacking it? It's like using a history book to heat a coffee cup.
*And I know a lot of Winchester fans who do indeed shoot the old boys whenever possible, though with suitable BP loads of course.
Call me crazy, but I like to spend my free time undoing Bubba's transgressions. Hell I've even gone so far as to buy a cut down 91/30, trimmed her down, mounted a new front sight and threw her in a M38 stock. There's just a part of me that won't let a hacked up mil surp languish on a rack. That is if it is capable of being saved.
Cosmoline
Member
I wish that were true, but I've seen hundreds of firearms that reveal otherwise.
how is it more usefull? does hacking the stock make it more accurate? does bending the bolt handle make it more reliable?
how is it more usefull? you still have what ever rifle you started with, unless your a REAL good gunsmith, your never gunna excede the rifles capabilitys in sporter form than in military form.
id hardly call myself a snob. im a 20 year old kid, who drives a 21 year old car, is in college, works in a deli, dresses blue jeans and a tshirt....
im not a car snob. i like all cars FOR THIER BUILT USE! ( a truck is a truck, an econo car is an econo car and a sports car is a sports car, they dont overlap)
I like all guns for THEIR BUILT USE! ( a milsurp is a war rifle. a Remchester is a hunting rifle, theres no overlap)
the most expensive gun i own ( cost under 300$) is probilbly cheaper than most peoples least expensive. id take a beat up model 12 over any italian O/U. and a stock rifle over any "super elite tactical sniper entry marksman rifle" or w/e the buzz word of the week is. not because im a snob. but because im simple.
dont call us snobs. were minimalists, or Old Fashioned, pretty much anything BUT snobs.
thereisnospoon
Member
Me thinks this is the pot calling the kettle black.
Notice my post said most
Just to make sure we all understand each other...I have several rifles in my collection, including a P14 .303 Brit that I love and would never :grind the ears off", etc. However, I converted a beat up Spanish Mauser converted to 7.62X51 into a pseudo-Scout that is FAR more useful than its original condition. When I received it, the rear sight would not stay put with the recoil (even of my light handloads). I replaced the rear sight to no avail, so I removed it and put a scope mount in its place...while I was at it, I cut the barrel down to 20" to make it more suitable for faster handling. Oh the horror.
Prior to "bubba-ing" the gun fired a five shot group in the neighborhood of 5". After cutting and recrowning the barrel and adding a stable sight platform, I can now easily hold 1" groups from prone and 2' from kneeling/sitting and little more offhand.
I know how to use the iron sights on ALL of my rifles, yet I still like to modify my rifles for different needs...
Again, different strokes for different folks...
goalie
Member
You can do whatever you want with your own property.
Gord
Member
Don't restore an old muscle car (even if it's a rusted hull), just buy a Corvette.
The First Rule of Milsurp Elitists is that anything they own that isn't bone-stock is a Tastefully Done Custom Job; anything you own that isn't bone-stock is a drunken bubba hackjob.
I also appreciate the contention that doing anything to a milsurp is "treating it like garbage." Cosmo outdoes himself at every turn
It's the novelty and the desire to make something one-of-a-kind out of something that was produced in the hundreds of thousands in the vast majority of cases that drives "bubba-ing" today - at least in my mind. Yes, there are good ol' boys out there who operate on the "bent bolt and blade sight are required to hunt dehr" principle of milsurp hacksawing, and the same good ol' boys will, collectively, get their hands on at least a few rare guns; but by and large, a milsurp is a milsurp is a milsurp. What's valuable today is only so because of Joe Bob's handiwork in past decades; if original whatevers could still be had by the barrelful, they'd still be cheap.
Me? I kinda want to take a Finn Mosin, do something to the bolt, give the stock a little more curve and shine, and pour some deep lustrous blue all over it. Maybe replace the sights, do some scrollwork...
I'd never be able to live with myself if I did, but I still want to.
The First Rule of Milsurp Elitists is that anything they own that isn't bone-stock is a Tastefully Done Custom Job; anything you own that isn't bone-stock is a drunken bubba hackjob.
I also appreciate the contention that doing anything to a milsurp is "treating it like garbage." Cosmo outdoes himself at every turn
It's the novelty and the desire to make something one-of-a-kind out of something that was produced in the hundreds of thousands in the vast majority of cases that drives "bubba-ing" today - at least in my mind. Yes, there are good ol' boys out there who operate on the "bent bolt and blade sight are required to hunt dehr" principle of milsurp hacksawing, and the same good ol' boys will, collectively, get their hands on at least a few rare guns; but by and large, a milsurp is a milsurp is a milsurp. What's valuable today is only so because of Joe Bob's handiwork in past decades; if original whatevers could still be had by the barrelful, they'd still be cheap.
Me? I kinda want to take a Finn Mosin, do something to the bolt, give the stock a little more curve and shine, and pour some deep lustrous blue all over it. Maybe replace the sights, do some scrollwork...
I'd never be able to live with myself if I did, but I still want to.
so true
ABSOLUTELY. This is why I decided not to screw with mine. I was unable to come up with anything better than what the designer came up with. Simonov, Kalashnikov, Browning and all those guys were smarter than I, and way smarter than you. I seriously looked at all sorts of ways to "improve" the weapon and, wisely I think, came to the realization that nothing I, or anyone else, could do would improve it. It was at this point that I also realized the beauty and genius of the weapon, and now the idea of bubbaing one is an anathema to me.
Duh. The question is not "can you" bubba a milsurp gun but rather "is it wise" to bubba a milsurp gun. And if it ain't wise to do, why are you doing it?
ABSOLUTELY. This is why I decided not to screw with mine. I was unable to come up with anything better than what the designer came up with. Simonov, Kalashnikov, Browning and all those guys were smarter than I, and way smarter than you. I seriously looked at all sorts of ways to "improve" the weapon and, wisely I think, came to the realization that nothing I, or anyone else, could do would improve it. It was at this point that I also realized the beauty and genius of the weapon, and now the idea of bubbaing one is an anathema to me.
Duh. The question is not "can you" bubba a milsurp gun but rather "is it wise" to bubba a milsurp gun. And if it ain't wise to do, why are you doing it?
goalie
Member
Obviously people do what they want to a milsurp rifle because they WANT to.
It may not be wise for me to buy a .50 BMG rifle, but I'm gonna do it anyhow because I WANT to.
Clipper
Member
...Because I can! And I mean me personally. I'm a retired Journeyman Toolmaker, and between my experience, my mill, lathe and surface grinder, I quite frankly resent the term 'Bubba', and can hold my work up against any smith, and certainly any of you snobs...And yes, I have my M12s, M-70s and M-99s among others, but when I want something to use when I'm going deer hunting in an ice storm in a cedar swamp, my new featherweight M-70 stays home, and my 22" glass stocked, peep sighted, turned-down M-N is what I take.
I could give a rip about the rifle's history, unless it's a one-of-a-kind story like the gun that killed the Czar. What I'm concerned with is it's future with me.
I could give a rip about the rifle's history, unless it's a one-of-a-kind story like the gun that killed the Czar. What I'm concerned with is it's future with me.
...of course you do. And so do all the other bubbas. Especially the ones with the off-center scope mounts and dremeled bayo lugs and monte carlo stocks.
Just like the guys who lower their cars and put stickers on them and big tail pipes want to think their cars look better. Uhmm.. it ain't true for them, and it ain't true for all the bubbaed guns out there.
Sorry.
But you’re NOT restoring an old muscle car. You’re taking an old 1960's work truck, cutting off the roof, gluing a fin on it and calling it a sports car.
Im in the process of restoring a milsurp. What I do, and what bubba does are completely different ends of the spectrum
No, the first rule of milsurp collection is "Do no harm" don’t do anything to the rifle that it wouldnt of been issued with or that it didn’t pick up in its professional life. That includes stock carvings, painted on numbers or colors, or the like.
The idea that a "milsurp elitist" as you call us would even have a "custom job" is contradictory to your own argument. You argue that we are blindly opposed to touching a gun for any reason, yet you suggest that we are hypocritical to the point that we have our own bubbas that we think are better than yours.
HAHAHA ya real "one of a kind" you and every other person who buys an ATI stock or a bent bolt on eBay.
thats assuming equal production, survival and importation of all the hundreds of milsurps.
so what makes it ok for you to have reservations on a smaller scale. but wrong for me to present a SOCIALY IMPOSED argument against bubba.
see there’s the key. we have 2 factors in our lives that limit what we do. Social and Legal (civil/criminal). Legal should only serve as a means to support the most outrageous of social taboos ( this is called natural law. the things so widely despised and inherently evil, no reasonable minded person would support them. murder, rape, eating babies. all the good stuff)
social on the other hand covers everything from civility, manners, trust, courtesy, etiquette etc. you remove your hat when you enter a building. not because its the law and you risk jail time, but because its etiquette and you risk a whooping from you father. You don’t eat with your hands at a formal dinner, not because its the law, but because its frowned on by the rest of society.
and you shouldn’t bubba a milsurp, not because its a law. but because it should be socially unacceptable.
"milsurp purist" are only trying to get the rest of the world to adopt this social standard. we present reason as to why bubbas are
Damaging objects of historic significance
Sub par sporters
Possible destruction of extremely rare models
Destruction of future generations to own pieces of history
And more
I personally may joke around that "he should go to jail for hacking up that ___" but no one is seriously suggesting there be any legal attempt to prohibit modification. But it should be socially frowned upon
You may say "so what, who cares what you (society) think, im gunna do it anyway" but no matter how Marlon Brando or James Dean you think you are. Social restrictions still affect you. And if you dug up George Washington or John Adams and ask if they wanted America to be ruled by social norms and only a hand full of laws in support of only the natural laws. Im sure they would agree.
thereisnospoon
Member
So I am making G. Washington and J. ADams roll over in their graves?
Shocking
this thread is getting silly
Shocking
this thread is getting silly
Hoppy, I don't know how you can be so right and so wrong at the same time...
You hit the nail on the head when you said it's all about social norms. It's just that some (milsurp elitists) would seek to impose their norms, and resulting behavioral restrictions, on other folks when no harm is being done.
I don't think Bubba'ing rifles is the best idea. What I find an even less good idea is telling others what to do.
Unless of course, we're going to go all the way down that road. One of my favorite sayings is "When everybody gives me what I want, when I want it, the world will be a much better place for me..."
You hit the nail on the head when you said it's all about social norms. It's just that some (milsurp elitists) would seek to impose their norms, and resulting behavioral restrictions, on other folks when no harm is being done.
I don't think Bubba'ing rifles is the best idea. What I find an even less good idea is telling others what to do.
Unless of course, we're going to go all the way down that road. One of my favorite sayings is "When everybody gives me what I want, when I want it, the world will be a much better place for me..."
mustanger98
Member
Well, the way I look at it is if I'm getting ready to build a sporter, I'll surf Gunbroker a while and pick out a complete Mauser K98k or Springfield '03/'03A3 action or maybe a barreled action and build on it and do it right. No sense in hacking a nice old rifle, but no sense in not making a hacked mess into something a lot nicer. And don't give me that crap about making a silk purse out of a sow's ear... we're talking rifles, not luggage.
This thread was silly from the start.
This thread was silly from the start.
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