Please educate me on bolt gun actions

[Citadel99]

So I've realized through a few recent threads that are pretty focused on bolt gun actions that I really know next to nothing about this outside of functionality and the difference between a $300 action and an $1800 action. Realizing smoothness of cycling is obviously something the higher end actions have. Also, the newer capability of barrel swapping Taliv mentioned. What else? Appreciate it.

Mark

 

[adcoch1]

Bolt actions have been around longer than any of us, and are a broad subject to discuss without parameters.
Military arms started with controlled round feeding and a need to be reliable first, accuracy second, and able to be produced in numbers affordably (usually) third. We have since moved on to better stock materials, using science to figure and calculate ballistics which has drawn out better ammo. This has also lead to the improvement in optics, and as bolt rifle production matured we have seen designs change to facilitate quicker, cheaper build methods. Its a great time in history to be playing with bolt guns!

 

[Conelrad]

Front lug, rear lug. The rest is academia.

Get something you like, shoot it, go from there.

There is always another to try...

Conelrad

 

[Varminterror]

In general, aspects you’re paying for in higher priced actions come in 2 (maybe 3) classes - with a little mud smearing of certain aspects among both:

1) Objective design features

2) Subjective user experience features

Class 1 is generally pretty straight forward: extra or more complicated machining or assembly will increase cost. So actions with integral lugs and/or integral picatinny rails will cost more than actions with washer-type lugs and/or bolt on rails. It takes more machining time to produce an action with these integral components, more set-up changes in the equipment. Improved extractors are another example. Also here are tolerance controls - which can influence function, but also fits in the second class, as it influences the feel of the action. Drop in barrels are an example in this class also - instead of letting bolts land in receivers however they come off of the machine, then fitting individualized barrels to that bolt + action + barrel combination, some makers spend more time ensuring they get perfectly controlled boltface to action headspace such any chambered barrel can be installed on any action and land within tolerances. Stainless steel vs. carbon steel is another mud-smear aspect with a foot in each class - I subjectively prefer stainless, so I’d pay more for it, but it also takes a little more care in machining, but doesn’t require corrosion preventative finishes - labor and equipment to create. Also in this class, additional machining and parts assemblies like claw extractors or three position safeties will add cost. Within machining tolerances, runout and “truth” also influence production cost and precision. It costs more to ensure every bolt has sufficient bolt lug contact, square lugs, true bolt faces, true threads, consistent boltways, etc.

In class 2, we have things like action feel (dependent upon machining tolerances), aesthetic appearance, etc. An example I use here is bolt fluting - it does almost nothing for function, but guys love it, and we end up paying more for it, as it takes more machining set up and time than a standard bolt. Cerakote finishes, nitriding, high polish, etc also affect manufacturing costs. Coatings like cerakote elite and DLC can influence action feel considerably, as well as cost.

Since you referenced $300 at the bottom end, it’s fair to point out the difference between mass produced complete firearms which cost $300-400 as a very different animal than custom manufactured actions worth $1200-1400. On a “class 1” feature equivalence, a $350 Remington 700 ADL action is functionally featured about equivalently to an $800 class custom action - pancake recoil lug, bolt on optic rail, standard 700 extractor (or maybe not). A factory action MIGHT have a true bolt face, true threads, or it might not. A custom action will. Adding features increases cost from there. A custom action might get a much higher degree of polish before bluing than a cheap factory action - just the same as an expensive factory action might get a higher degree than a cheap factory one. When a company can crank out thousands upon thousands of rifles with lower time Invested, they can realize substantial savings whether on materials or equipment paybacks... they dilute marketing and other overhead into far more salable units... it’s like comparing an F-150 to a Ferrari. Ford makes profits less per unit, but they invest less per unit, charge less, sell more, and profit more overall.

Personally - If you’re interested in a custom rifle or rebuilt factory rifle, I’ve come to believe in two (somewhat unfortunate) truths:

1) Custom actions are worth the additional sticker price over factory actions. It’s pretty rare these days to be able to buy a factory action and have it blueprinted and upgraded to match the features of a visually similar custom action. Even if you find an avenue to blueprint and upgrade the factory action for lower cost than the custom action, the end product when starting with a factory rifle never is quite the same as the custom, and the resale value is considerably less. A turd can be polished for the right money, but at the end of the day, it’s still a polished turd. With a factory action, you never really know what you’re going to get. You have that luxury with custom actions.

2) Going cheap on a custom action isn’t worth it - spending $800 instead of $1200 on the action seems like it’s a big savings, but it becomes inconsequential in the overall cost of ownership of the rifle. If you’re building a hunting rifle, it’ll last forever, so the realized additional annual cost is near zero. If you’re building a competition rifle, the ammunition cost (and repeated replacement barrel costs) will overshadow the slight increase in action cost very quickly. Either way, the extra money on the action really doesn’t move the needle.

 

[earlthegoat2]

A simplistic action that many find to be the end all be all action type. They have advantages especially in these modern times of being economical to manufacture and give great accuracy for said price point.

As a target gun, they may be the end all be all but as a hunting rifle they are, in my opinion, recklessly over rated considering the multitude of other options that can do the exact same thing.

Some characteristics of bolt guns are camming extraction for stickier cases. This is advantageous if you are shooting higher pressure rounds. The front lug actions are generally among the strongest of all action types and will have better provisions for venting gases in the event of a pierced primer or case rupture.

They are generally highly reliable. Have better and easier headspace control during manufacture and/or for later tuning. Manual safety systems can be bombproof with the types that block or cam directly on the striker. Receiver and barrel assemblies are firmly affixed and the rifle will have a one piece stock which further aids in accuracy potential. They are easy to glass and pillar bed for marginal increased accuracy as well because of the one piece stock.

There are many many more reasons to consider a bolt action. That’s just off the top of my head.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

Two works are pretty good starting places for the bolt action autodidact: Stuart Otteson's The Bolt Action: A Design Analysis vols. I & II and DeHass and Van Zwoll's Bolt Action Rifles (preferably the new 4th ed.) You local public library can borrow copies for you to read (Otteson is out of print).

Some significant variables between designs: action to cartridge size & weight ratio, bolt lockup to receiver vs. barrel, bolt throw distance, bolt lift in degrees, resistance and smoothness of the bolt's motion, breeching method (mostly this is about how much of the cartridge base is supported and/or closely surrounded by the bolt face and barrel), basic action strength and durability, ease of disassembly and maintenance, controlled vs. push feed, extractor and ejector design, single vs. double stack vs. rotary vs. tubular (if you go back that far in time) magazines, integral vs. removable magazines, suitability to optics and aperture sight mounting, availability of spares, upgrades and accessories. And then there's manufacturing and quality control and optional features to consider.

You could either hit the books and read about everything, or start with the basic question of what do you want your rifle to do and then work out which action does that particular job the best. My answer has tended to be some variation on the basic Mauser 98 design, which in its original form is neither the fastest to operate nor the lightest or most compact. You'll learn a lot either way.

 

[taliv]

Key features
Action hardness - more expensive are typically much harder steel and hard is slick
Stiffness - tiny ports with steel on top and bottom instead of open tops
Longer tenons
trigger hangers
Number of lugs
Shape of bolt head
Types of extractors
Types of ejectors
Integral lug
Integral rail
Smaller firing pin holes
Anti binding features
Ability to switch barrels
Ability to take single or double stack mags
One piece bolt and handle


Customizable features like
Left bolt right port or vice versa
Different port geometries
Length of bolt throw
Bolt knob shape and size
Bolt handle straight or swept


I could go on and on

 

[taliv]

Btw within reason I disagree with the end of varmints post. I think recent offerings from savage and ruger etc are accurate enough and functional enough to allow someone to be reasonably competitive enough to have fun and they’re remarkably inexpensive. Custom actions aren’t necessary.

Read walkalongs pinned thread

 

[Walkalong]

Realizing smoothness of cycling is obviously something the higher end actions have.

Not necessarily. What they should be, is much better made, in particular, all squared up. It used to be you had a factory action "blueprinted", which did that. Or you could get a 40X (Trued from the factory Remington), or you bought a custom action. There are so many more players there today that I would not be able to blankly recommend them all. A bigger bedding area used to be important, as was a stiffer action, which is still good.

@taliv covered it well, but the me the biggest part is better manufacturing and being all trued up. All trued up used to be done extra at our expense. Still can be.

The action is the foundation, without a great one, you can't have a great rifle. Then of course you have to have a match grade barrel, made by someone who knows how to make barrels, and chambered by someone who knows how to make world class accurate rifles.

Then you have to choose ammo that can shoot, or build ammo with match grade bullets that can shoot.

Lots of places to go wrong along the way.

The fact that I can now order a custom action, and a pre-fit barrel, and drop it in a chassis and have it shoot under 1/2 MOA easily is mind boggling compared to 30 years ago.

Ain't cheap, but doable.

 

[MikeInOr]

Generally the cost of a bolt action / barrel combo goes up exponentially as the group size (repeatability) gets smaller.

For a deer rifle does a half inch at a 100 yards make a difference?

For a target rifle competitors are paying ever higher prices for ever smaller improvements in accuracy (repeatability of bullet point of impact). Great lengths and lots of money is spent for very very small improvements of repeatability.

 

[Gordon]

I have watched the AICS magazine system really improve the Bolt system from a tactical stand point. The modern store bought high performance barrel/action system beats in everway the having to know the custom rifle guru to get modification for AR or M14 mags THAT WORK, custom Blueprinting and tweaks and the trick billet parts assembled by guys like Chet Brown (near me ) , to get ahead in the emerging practical rifle competitions on the West coast in the Mid 80s . , Then there is the hunting rifle action and our man Offhand has several examples of the best of that , weather Mauser 98 or variations like pre 64 Winchester style. Then there are the more tactical stuff like Artic Warfare ect. hardware. Then there are Dangerous Game Rifles and there reliability in any field condition with some Panache thrown in finally disregarding niche items ; there are the low cost yet accurate enough plinkers and sporters we all learned on

 

[JFrank]

A saying comes to mind-
It takes a great action to make a great rifle but a great shooter can make an action great.
Something like that anyway.
J

 

[JFrank]

So I've realized through a few recent threads that are pretty focused on bolt gun actions that I really know next to nothing about this outside of functionality and the difference between a $300 action and an $1800 action. Realizing smoothness of cycling is obviously something the higher end actions have. Also, the newer capability of barrel swapping Taliv mentioned. What else? Appreciate it.

Mark

I mentioned basically the same thing to a rifle builder just a couple weeks ago, saying that it would be tough for me to choose a custom action not knowing all the latest up to datest Bat vs Borden , pin fall, trigger hangers , action timing blah blah....

His reply was - Not at all ‘ that’s what I’m for.
J

 

[Nature Boy]

One of the bigger benefits not mentioned enough on these factory vs. custom action comparisons is service.

Have an issue with a Kelbly action? When you call it's often the guys that make them that answer the phone, and sometimes it's the owner. Expect to get it fixed right, right now and usually for no charge.

You ain't getting that with Remington.

 

[Citadel99]

All--thanks a ton for your responses. This is exactly what I was looking for and exactly why this is the best shooting forum on the web. Great information and zero belittling comments.

Mark

 

[Varminterror]

A (unimpassioned) counter-point to @nature Boy’s correct assertion of better service from a custom maker than a box-store brand... Maybe it’s the idea of how many years I (hope to) still have in front of me, but I’m always a little reticent to ring that “you’ll talk to someone who actually knows” bell without also acknowledging the fact many of these custom action companies are built and carried on the backs of one or two owners/founders. Most of my custom rifles have been built by guys older than me - a couple have since died - so if my son has an issue with his grandpa’s Remington 700 20, 30, or 50 years from now, versus my Spanish Mauser or the new Impact I’m going to order for his mom, after I’m dead, Remington will likely answer the phone, while Van who built the Mauser can’t and won’t, and who knows what happens to Impact and Tape-matics after Wade, Tate, and Robin are gone (God forbid any time soon).

Another wrinkle in the service discussion is the undeniable reality - an average custom rifle buyer might have more questions than the average unwitting factory rifle buyer, so we might call custom makers proportionately more often, but let’s be honest - custom actions are going to have proportionately less - far less - defects and issues reaching the market. A bunch of us might have to call Savage about warped forends on a particular era of 12 FV’s, which never would have happened with GAP rifles, let alone see the light of day in customer hands. You know what you’re going to get with a custom action or custom rifle. You might get lucky with a factory rifle, or you might not. So it’s a paradox - we’re more likely to NEED customer support from a factory maker, but not as likely to get the same quality of support.

 

[Nature Boy]

A (unimpassioned) counter-point to @nature Boy’s correct assertion of better service from a custom maker than a box-store brand... Maybe it’s the idea of how many years I (hope to) still have in front of me, but I’m always a little reticent to ring that “you’ll talk to someone who actually knows” bell without also acknowledging the fact many of these custom action companies are built and carried on the backs of one or two owners/founders. Most of my custom rifles have been built by guys older than me - a couple have since died - so if my son has an issue with his grandpa’s Remington 700 20, 30, or 50 years from now, versus my Spanish Mauser or the new Impact I’m going to order for his mom, after I’m dead, Remington will likely answer the phone, while Van who built the Mauser can’t and won’t, and who knows what happens to Impact and Tape-matics after Wade, Tate, and Robin are gone (God forbid any time soon).

Another wrinkle in the service discussion is the undeniable reality - an average custom rifle buyer might have more questions than the average unwitting factory rifle buyer, so we might call custom makers proportionately more often, but let’s be honest - custom actions are going to have proportionately less - far less - defects and issues reaching the market. A bunch of us might have to call Savage about warped forends on a particular era of 12 FV’s, which never would have happened with GAP rifles, let alone see the light of day in customer hands. You know what you’re going to get with a custom action or custom rifle. You might get lucky with a factory rifle, or you might not. So it’s a paradox - we’re more likely to NEED customer support from a factory maker, but not as likely to get the same quality of support.

All valid points. Also, that personal level of service that comes with a custom action is baked into the cost so it ain’t for free.

Most folks will likely go though their entire shooting life without needing to call a brand name customer service department with an issue, but we see enough anecdotal stories posted here and elsewhere indicating that when they do the answers given are often unsatisfying (“your rifle is in spec”, or “we fixed it “ - but it still has the same problem, etc)

So, when you need the service it’s nice to know you can count on it.

Here’s my anecdotal story. I had just taken possession of a custom rifle with Stolle Panda action. I was anxious to get a load worked up and try it out in an F Class match the following weekend.

Unfortunately, I had a scope clearance issue with the bolt handle. Understand, this wasn’t a workmanship issue, it was a stack up problem with the low rings I was using and the objective on my Kahles scope.

I called Kelbly’s and talked to Ian. He said FexEx the bolt to him and he would fix it and overnight it back to me. Sent it on a Monday, got it back on Wednesday with the clearance issue resolved. There was no invoice in the box so I called Ian to see what I owed him. His response was, “nothing, that what we do for our customers”

Again, that’s one of the things that differentiates factory from custom, but you are paying for it. A Panda action costs a lot more than a Remington 700

 

[d2wing]

I think it depends on how you expect to use the rifle as well as your budget.
After a local match at our club I visited with a guy that competes at a higher level than I do. I had just won the rimfire match. He shots with a group of guys that shoot centerfire at 100 yards. He showed me a target where all shots were in the same hole barely bigger than caliber. Pretty sure I couldn't shoot that well with any rifle. He said they pretty much all use blue printed 700 actions with custom barrels and stock built by a local gunsmith. $1500 or so he said for a rifle better than I can shoot. But some of you are better than I am and require better equipment. If I get 1/4 to 1/2 inch groups with my best hunting rifle I am happy. Just two cents from a guy with not much money to spend.

 

[Picher]

Many of us have experienced problems with factory guns at one time or another, but few have been off to the point that they wouldn't fire as they came from Remington, Winchester or a few others. I've purchased used Remington rifles that have had problems, perhaps from new, but didn't have the ability to know that. Lately, my rifles sent to Remington Repair shops haven't been quickly, nor adequately repaired.

When a teenager many moons ago, my Savage had all kinds of ignition issues, including misfires, pierced primers, flattened or cratered primers. Turned out that it was caused because I was begging use of someone else's press that was adjusted for a couple of Win 70s with tight chambers. Sent it back to the factory with a new bolt assembly, but it wasn't any better. After I got my own press and adjusted the dies properly, it no longer had problems.

More recently, primer cratering/flattening, and hard cocking caused me to send an ADL Stainless Varmint to a Rem. "contract" repair center and it was not only returned without being repaired, but with a letter condemning the rifle as being "dangerous" as having excessive headspace. I immediately took it, and a brand new ADL to a favorite gunsmith who had the right headspace gauge for the .223 and he found that the headspace was perfect and exactly the same for both that one and the NEW ADL of the same chambering. A new firing pin/spring assembly I got later cured the fault with the older rifle, since the spring had been dragging inside the bolt. That's all it had for problems!

I've learned a lot about factory rifles and hope that custom rifles are made better. Most custom sporter hunting rifles use foreign or low-production-high quality new actions, or in the past, excellent Mausers, etc. They may function extremely well for a lifetime, but accuracy isn't just the task of the metalwork, it's necessary to properly bed the metal in wood or synthetic, or it may not shoot as well as a tweaked. older Remington-based varmint or "or sporter" rifle.

Don't tell anyone, but a well-bedded Savage, Remington, Browning, or Winchester bolt rifle with a decent factory barrel (most do) will shoot as well as many custom rifles, provided they're shooting ammo that is either "tuned handloads", or some factory ammo that it REALLY likes. Custom rifles tend to have very tight bedding, especially along the barrel, which isn't always conducive to great accuracy, just impressing people in the gun room.

Seems that I'm the fussiest guy at the range and one of the better shots, but I go way ahead of most when it comes to very accurate results in hunting rifles/ammo, when even I know that it's not necessary to have deer rifles that shoot better than 1.5 MOA for deer and several other kinds of quarry at ranges to 300 yards or so.

As a teen, I remember killing many small critters at distances out to 75 yards with a 6-MOA .22 LR semi-auto rifle and didn't care at all about it until one day, after thousands of rounds, I shot it on paper. It was traded that day, despite the fact that it killed about anything I pointed it at.

Sorry for the long post.

JP