Please educate me

[absolut_beethoven]

Seeing as I was born in South Africa, I don't have the understanding of the Constitution that our educated Americans have - most politicians excepted of course.

But having lived here for the past 28 years I do have a basic grasp of what it's all about. The one thing, besides the Second Amendment, that's bothered me the most is how is it constitutionally possible for congress to write laws for the people that they themselves are exempt from? I thought that nobody was above the law.

A recent article in the Los Angeles Times (cut and paste the link below) concerning a couple in NH who refuse to pay taxes because they say taxes are unconstitutional reminded me of this. While I don't agree with them, and certainly hope that this situation doesn't devolve into another Waco or Ruby Ridge massacre, it did remind me of this sore point. I'm sure that it bothers many others too.

How did the American people let congress get away with exempting themselves from paying social security taxes? I can understand if they paid the taxes and still had their own private pension plans, just like most large corporations. I just don't understand how they can foist this tax on us but write into law that they are exempt from it. And what makes it even worse, is that there are zero deductions!

So, please educate me on this one because it just doesn't make any sense to me.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-na-taxevaders20jul20,1,1020218.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

 

[LightningJoe]

Ha ha. They're not above the law. The law just doesn't apply to them. They make sure of that when they write the law.


I think the Republicans in 1994 said something about ending the practice of Congress passing laws that apply to everybody except Congress. They were also for term limits. I guess after you become the majority, that stuff stops making sense.

 

[SG Merc]

It's the same as with firearms restrictions. The government makes the law, and so they insure that it only applies to the non-government citizenry.

The biggest thing that could change this country is if the people demanded that the laws and restrictions that the government forces on us start to be applied to them as well. I would imagine that the politicians wouldn't be very pleased if federal forces and whatnot weren't allowed to have the latest military weapons and accessories.

 

[absolut_beethoven]

It's the same as with firearms restrictions. The government makes the law, and so they insure that it only applies to the non-government citizenry.

That was my reason for posting this because it applies both to taxes and firearms, and probably too many other things that I'm not aware of.

So I guess I was wrong - i.e. congress can write laws that apply to everybody except them

 

[pdowg881]

It's becuase not enough people care to make a difference. American idol and hollywood occupy and keep most satisfied. Whenever politics comes up, I'm told to shut up and the discussion is shifted to celebrity gossip.

 

[yinyangdc]

We don't really follow the constitution anymore, and a lot of people seem to like it that way.

 

[GRIZ22]

How did the American people let congress get away with exempting themselves from paying social security taxes? I can understand if they paid the taxes and still had their own private pension plans, just like most large corporations. I just don't understand how they can foist this tax on us but write into law that they are exempt from it. And what makes it even worse, is that there are zero deductions!


All civilian Federal employees prior to about 1986 didn't pay Social Security. If they were in the Civil Service Retirement System (CSRS) they paid for their pension but not Social Security. They couldn't collect Social Security unless they had paid into it for a sufficient number of quarters prior to Federal employment. In 1986 the Federal Employees Retirement System (FERS) was adopted for all civilian Federal employees. This made 3 components of your retirement Social Security, your retirement, and the Thrift Savings Plan (like a 401K) all of which the employee contributes to. If you started in CSRS they have offered the chance to transfer to FERS but not vice versa.

Most State and local goverment employees don't pay into Social Security but contribute to a qualified pension plan. Teachers, firemen, police, pot hole fillers and other sdon't pay SS. What qualifies a pension plan I don't know. They are also not allowed to collect SS unless they have had other jobs where they put in enough quarters.

The military pays SS but does not contribute to their pension. I believe this was done as most people who enter the military don't retire from it and they wanted them to accumulate SS time so they could collect when older.

 

[absolut_beethoven]

Thanks GRIZ22, now I think I'm beginning to understand.

It seems like we - the general public - are the ones who are still getting shafted, but from your explanation I can see how we ended up in this situation.

Thanks once again for your informative reply.

 

[Leatherneck]

I believe the original statute creating SS mandated that *everybody* participate, unless they were already in a substantially similar plan. Thus, Congress, the military, civil servants, state employees with their own retirement plan, etc. were exempt.

Frankly, I'm kind of surprised that we don't see more legal action against various levels of government for discriminating in other laws, based on the 14th Amendment to the Constitution:

Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

TC

 

[geekWithA.45]

First, thank you for the cogent explanation on federal employee exemptions to SS.

I have a sidebarish nit to pick. It's not big, but it exists.

They couldn't collect Social Security unless they had paid into it

I really wish people would stop using language that implies that we somehow "pay into" social security, as if it were a trust fund, 401k, or cash lockbox.

It is NOT any of those.

Social Security is a Tax, plain and simple, period.

The dollars absconded from my mid month paycheck went to my mom & dads social security check at the end of the month.

Yes, there are rules about how much tax you pay.
Yes, there are rules about how much benefit you get on the back end.( if any*.)
Yes, the output rules have a relationship with the output rules.

But NO, the money you've paid is GONE, and the benefits you hope to recieve someday are not even vaguely your property. Even the implied moral indebtedness of the government is just that: implied, rather than actual.



*There are a number of ways you might not collect back all the money you paid in taxes. Death is the big one. If you die childless and spouseless, it all goes Pouf, and the .gov supports someone else's retirement with your taxes, though I'm sure your estate will be fattened by the whopping $255 "death benefit". Basically, it's the .gov sending flowers to your funeral, with a card attached that says, "So long, and thanks for all the fish". They constantly play games with the retirement age, for another, pushing the goal post further and further back. And finally, there's no guarantee that the system will even exist by the time I'm old enough to collect on it.

 

[geekWithA.45]

Anyway, sorry for the OT sidetrack. Even I do it.

To get it back on topic, the main question was "how does it square with the constitution that congress can make laws it exempts itself from?"

The answer is simple: The constitution remains silent on that topic.

It specifically grants the power of law making to Congress.

Congress is restrained by it's own rules, the Bill of Rights, various other provisions in the constitution itself, and the electoral will of the people.

None of these items prohibit congressional exemption from legislation.

Why we tolerate it's another question, for which I have no answer, and this seems like an excellent topic for a constitutional amendment.

Can anyone think of a legitimate reason or scenario under which congress should be exempt from anything?

 

[absolut_beethoven]

Thanks to everybody for taking the time to post your responses.

Now that I understand the situation slightly better, only leaves me with a greater dislike of all these dishonest politicians.

An honest politician, now that's a real oxymoron!

 

[GRIZ22]

Social Security is a Tax, plain and simple, period.


I do agree with your statement. Privatizing SS to me is not a bad idea. Instead of paying the tax you would be putting into something like the FERS Thrift Saving Plan. Your monet stays yours. Some have been critical about relying on the stock market for their pension. They could put it in goverment securities which although have a lower return are pretty safe. If you lost your money this way the whole goverment would be belly up and your money would be the least of your problems.

Sorry to go off topic but I thought I should add to my previous post.

 

[yokel]

How did the American people let congress get away with exempting themselves from paying social security taxes? I can understand if they paid the taxes and still had their own private pension plans, just like most large corporations. I just don't understand how they can foist this tax on us but write into law that they are exempt from it. And what makes it even worse, is that there are zero deductions!

Many members of Congress live in such opulence that they become out of touch with the lifestyle of ordinary Americans.

They are unable to lead by example, and this leads to legislative outcomes which benefit corporate and wealthy elites at the expense of the majority of hard-working American taxpayers.

 

[migoi]

A slight clarification...

I am a public school teacher and therefore a state employee. I do pay into social security. I also pay 6% of my salary (pre-tax) to the state employee retirement system plus I have a pre-tax contribution that goes to a 403B account (tax deferred annuity account for educators, not really 401K- no employer contribution)

While some states might have rules that exempt state employees from having to pay into that ponzi scheme we call social security....Hawaii is not one of them.

migoi