Pls compare S&W J, K and Colt Detective Special

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Could people who have shot all three please compare the following snubbbies in terms of concealability and ability to get off follow-up shots with +P ammunition:

Smith & Wesson Model 36
Colt Detective Special
Smith & Wesson Model 19
 
I dont think shooting +P is any different in steel framed guns such as those. I have alternated +p and standard in the same cylinder and have not noticed anything. My experience is with a Model 60 (stainless version of the 36), a Detective Special, and a Model 10 (38 only K frame like the model 19 without the underlug)

The Model 36 and Dick Spl are both pocketable for me. The model 19 is too big with the 2 1/2 inch barrel. A Model 10 snub is still pocketable though I think. It has a 2 inch barrel.

The Model 19 will be the easiest to shoot because it is bigger, heavier, and has wayyy better sights. However, any of these can still be shot accurately with practice as one should do with any snubby that is carried regularly.
 
Yanking the trigger fast is one thing. Getting accurate follow-up shots is another.

Depends greatly on how the gun fits your hand, more than the size of the actual frame. The weight of the frame makes a difference, too. I have a j-frame, a DS, and a Model 13 3", have had model 10 4" guns, and fired several Model 19 guns, 6", 4", and 2.5".

I get my fastest, best shooting with K frames. I mostly carry a J-frame (642). I have a DS as well. The DS is a bit of a conundrum gun for me. On the one hand, it's only slightly larger than the J frame, has six rounds, is quite accurate, and is just a nice gun. It's more comfortable to shoot than an aluminum J frame. Points in its favor, and why I have carried it frequently in the past. On the other hand, while it is lighter, it is only slightly smaller than the K frame, recoil control isn't as good as with the K frame, and the cylinder release is backwards.

If I'm going to be carrying it on the belt anyway (I carry the 642 in a pocket or Smartcarry mostly - it doesn't drag down my pants that way), I'm probably just going to carry the 13. Fast, accurate .38/.38 +p shooting, with comfortable .357 capability.
 
I've owned all three and surprisingly they are very different guns.

The M36/60 is the smallest and easiest to conceal...I'm not a big pocket gun guy and I don't think it is a good idea with a exposed hammer spur anyway. It is also the hardest to shoot well for either the first of followup shots. It's grip is too small and it's hammer travel tool shot for a smooth trigger stroke. Having said that I have carried a M642 for 15+ years in belt and ankle holsters.

The M19/66 have very good sights and it's longer leaf spring action is very smooth while at the same time short enough to allow rapid strokes. The K-frame is an excellent size to learn on and very comfortable...however, with the 2.5" barrel, it gives up the more reliable ejection stroke of it's longer nosed brothers.

The Detective Special is much easier to shoot than the S&W J-frame. It's leaf spring powered action and longer hammer travel make it easy to shoot the snubby...it is almost as easy to shoot as the K-frame. I never thought much about the size or weight difference between it and the M19. The only advantage that the M19 has over the DS are it's sights.

A better comparison for the 2.5" M19 would be the 2.5" Colt Diamondback...which I consider an outstanding gun. But you have to go in with the understanding that a Diamondback tune will cost more than a M19 action tune
 
^^^^

Agree with 9mmepiphany.


The sights on a Model 19 are better.

The sights on J-frames are almost of no use.

Depending on the production of the Detective Special, sights can go from adequate to little use. The earliest D.S. had a nice, tall and distinct front sight. The later models were ramped, and are much less distinct.

Of course, those adjustable rear sights do tend to snag on clothing, and can put a hole in a nice jacket after a while.

The K-frame tends to have a nicer trigger, and the J-frame will probably feel the worst of the three.


I've owned all 3. The K-frame is probably the most pleasant to shoot. I like the Detective Specials a lot to carry. And it's probably the better between the compromise of a good gun you'll carry all the time, while still being something you can control well and enjoy shooting enough on the range to master it.
 
I wanted to follow this up with some additional thoughts that might provide some insight. You asked a very general question, and provided almost no criteria or background as to why one might consider those different frame sizes. I’ll share a little history that influenced choices between them.


Back when Police Departments issued revolvers, Officers could be issued a different model depending on the job he did. Officers serving on large police forces or big metropolitan departments often saw changes in gear when they moved from uniformed patrol into a plain-clothes post or an office job. Many small departments wouldn’t spend the additional money on different models and the leather, but sometimes individual officers could, and if they could they often did.

If the department had contracts with Smith and Wesson, patrol officers were usually issued one of the models of the K or L frame revolvers. If it contracted with Colt, about the smallest size frame Patrol got were the Official Police. Colt Troopers and Lawmans were also common.

Without a wide duty belt those big, heavy large frame revolvers get uncomfortable. If the department didn’t have anything smaller to give him, when an Officer got to the office in the morning it was quite common for him to take his gun off, lock it in his desk drawer for the shift, go about his day, and only take it back out when his had reason to leave the office again. And not to discount the work they did, but those working in detective billets, department supervisors, and Chiefs of Police just didn’t go do jobs that required all the gear patrol officers carried. They didn’t take calls for service, and they wanted less. And men in positions like Chief of Police tend to get what they want. Both Colt and Smith responded to that market. The 2 inch Smith J-frame and Colt D-frame (Detective Specials, Agents, and Cobras) gained in reputation as commonly issued gear to plain-clothes officers like detectives, supervisors or others spending most of their time in office environments, i.e. - officers not going out on patrol.

Patrol Officers carried a working gun. The brass carried those small guns. They were harder to qualify with; harder to shoot well; harder to reload; they were harder to do pretty much anything with if you actually needed to use one. But they had one important characteristic that only really mattered - they were more comfortable to carry around all day long wearing a suit. Over time the Colt’s Detective and Smith’s Chief Special became regarded as something of a badge of honor, if you will, reserved for those senior officers.


As the carrying of concealed handguns by armed citizens became more acceptable by society, the buying public was attracted to those small guns for the same reasons. And by the end of the 20th century concealed carry became more than just socially acceptable, some states required it. Openly carrying a handgun became objectionable, or even unlawful in some places, much in the same way concealing one in the 1800s was. J-frames and Colt D-frames conceal much easier than that Smith K-frame will. They’re more comfortable, and they don’t need the support of a sturdy belt. With the advent of aluminum, titanium and now scandium metals, many people stick one in a pocket and don’t even use a belt at all. But they are harder to shoot.

And that’s the challenge between having something that conceals well, and something that you can make work and shoot well. If I thought I might actually have to use it, I’d carry something bigger than a J-frame. A lot of Officers carried one around because the job said “yes, even if you’re in an office, you’re still an Officer and you have to carry a gun”.
 
9mmepiphany pretty much said it all.

The only thing that I would mention is that the J and K frames from the early 60's and earlier seem to, in my experience, have better factory triggers than the later vintages. The same is true of DSs from the 50's.

In the name of disclosure, all of my J Frames have gone away. I have 4 D frame Colts.
The DS from 1972 (if I remember correctly) is decent but the Diamondback snubs and the 1955 Cobra are outstanding.

With revolvers, older is better.
 
The Model 19 is the heaviest thus the weight will help with muzzle lift slightly more than with the others, The Detective Special would be the next heaviest. However this slight decrease in muzzle lift is just that...slight, very slight actually. Of the three listed my personal choice is the Detective Special (or Cobra is you want to shed some ounces). 6 rounds in a smaller size than the S&W K-Frame. Add a shroud if you can find one or bob the hammer and it goes easily in a pocket. In roomier pants like carpenter jeans I have no problem dropping my Model 12 in a front pocket.

One big advantage of the shrouded guns like the Bodyguard or the hammerless like the 442 is the ability to be fired from inside a coat pocket. My Detective Special is my winter coat pocket gun because of this. Of course I would draw if possible but being able to have a grip on your gun when your hackles raise up is a great advantage and in a scuffle not having to clear the pocket could make a huge difference.

I carry three snubbies on a regular basis, a N-Frame 325PD in a OWB holster, a K-Frame Model 12 as a BUG either crossdraw or in pocket, and a Detective Special. I would also advise getting a copy of Ed Lovette's book "The Snubbie Revolver" which teaches use of the snubbie gun.

triosnubscopy.jpg
 
When I first started into handgunning, I found it slightly interesting (which was relative as everything about handgunning was very interesting to me) that many only LEOs preferred to carry a K-frame service pistol...usually the M-15 or M-13...but partnered it with a Colt D-frame snubby. The S&W J-frame seemed a more obvious choice...brand loyalty and all.

I just assumed that it was because of the extra round available in the Colt. It was only after some conversation and shooting that the real reason became apparent. The length of their trigger strokes were very similar and the same speedloaders could be used in both. Just one of those things that are so easy to overlook
 
9mmepiphany said:
preferred to carry a K-frame service pistol...usually the M-15 or M-13...but partnered it with a Colt D-frame snubby

One of the first times I had a chance to sit down and have a conversation with Tom Givens, he gave me the exact same comments. He went through his early years in policing with revolvers. It seemed a Smith K-frame went with a Colt D-frame like peanut butter and jelly. Both different, but they complemented each other so well. Same speedloaders. A trigger pull much more similar than the J-frame's. And it was much better to actually use than a J-frame.

He said he knew lots of guys his age who still carried revolvers. He emphasized the "s" when he said it, and furthermore said yes, he meant revolvers plural. It was very commonly a Smith K with a Colt D frame. Tom mentioned he liked the aluminum frame Colt, simply because it was lighter on an ankle or in a jacket pocket.

I remembered seeing him have that alloy D-frame Cobra at every N.T.I. event. And I saw in his newsletter this month he mentions still carrying it as a back-up. It ought to be up for another week yet to read.

http://www.rangemaster.com/
 
I have four Colts. Three of them have that trigger stack.


But the 2" D.S. had some really nice trigger work done to it at the Colt factory. Interestingly, I got it after a Federal Agent used it as a back up to a K-frame. I see a theme developing here . . .


If the trigger on that one is supposed to stack, somebody ought to tell that to the gun, because it doesn't. I've never pulled a trigger on a Colt that was so nice, let alone on the small D-frame. It's even better than the K-frames I've had or still have.

A Colt trigger that's been worked on right doesn't feel anything at all like that factory-stack they tend to come with.
 
A Colt trigger that's been worked on right doesn't feel anything at all like that factory-stack they tend to come with.
I'll bet Tedford did that one...often considered one of the four best for the Python action (back in the day). Two of the others where Jungkind and Moran, the fourth name escapes me...started with and "S" and there was a "W" in it. :(
 
I don't know which one of 'em did it.


The factory work order came along with it in the sale. I'll check to see if it has an actual name on it or not.
 
All I can tell you is what my finger feels.

All my other Colts do it. All the other Colts I've looked at, and friends at the club own different Colts will do it to one degree or another, and I can tell where it begins in the pull.


Not this one. If you're telling me it's supposed to, OK its supposed to. And it might even register some stack at the end on a piece of equipment that's designed to measure such things. But damn if I can feel it anywhere in the travel on this one.
 
I really don't feel the stacking in my Detective Special either. It is probably there but so minor it really doesn't register. It is a heavier trigger than my Model 12 but the Model 12 has been tuned by one of the better S&W smiths in the business.
 
Could people who have shot all three please compare the following snubbbies in terms of concealability and ability to get off follow-up shots with +P ammunition:

Smith & Wesson Model 36
Colt Detective Special
Smith & Wesson Model 19
M19 is a different animal

but of the two snubs, even after trigger jobs by competent gunsmiths, I choose Colt every time.

daily

hope this helps
 
Trigger stacking usually occurs in a Colt (especially a D-frame) when, while the hammer is rotating backwards the two leaves in the mainspring come together before the hammer is released.

You can check any revolver by removing the stocks, and holding it sideways while the handle part of the frame is backlit. Pull the trigger (double action) or cock the hammer (single action) while watching what the mainspring is doing. At full cock you should be able to still see a thin hairline of light between the leaves.
 
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"I'll bet Tedford did that one...often considered one of the four best for the Python action (back in the day). Two of the others where Jungkind and Moran, the fourth name escapes me...started with and "S" and there was a "W" in it."

Wonder if it was Walt Sherman. He no longer does revolvers, unfortunately. His had a roller action in it for
double action shooting. There was a write-up in the early '90's on him in American Handgunner.
He also offered the roller action on Smith K, L and N frames of pre-MIM design and unlike C&S old roller
action it retained the single action. Over at the Colt Forum there is an individual who acquired a number of specimens of Colts done by the masters and took them apart and analyzed them for those interested.
 
No it wasn't Walt, I got a chance to handle a couple of his Python and I thought the trigger pulls a bit heavy. I want to say it was something like Fred Sadowski...but my ability to spell Polish names is horrendous
 
Lets see: Nothing is in the class of a J frame for deep cover carry. They are the lightest and smallest by far of .38 class guns. Kinda ridiculous for people defense with .357s but comforting for last ditch animal dangers with .357 s. I can hit bunnies at 25+ yards with my Model 37 snub and target wadcutters, so they are accurate especially in .22.........
The Colt D frames are jewels, the Agents are only a little bigger and heavier than a airweight J frame and still fit in pockets ok. The Diamond backs don't fit in pockets well but are tack drivers and the shrouded barrel later guns are no slouches . I prefer to pocket carry an Agent in a pocket holster these last 30 years. But must confess to also carrying a J frame when wearing lighter clothing. D frame Colts use the same speedloader as a K frame IMHO.
Ahh K frames! Now this is the smallest gun one can do good work with .357s! However they don't carry in pockets. I used a 2.5" Model 19 in Law enforcement and it worked well when needed! Carried an Agent for a BUG. Used 110 grain +p+ "Treasury" loads in both. The Agent did NOT hold up to a LOT of those! I like K frames and only own a 242 and a 296 L frame DAO snubs which are kewl but getting big for true concealed carry. I solved the problem usng KwickClips instead of holsters but they don't fit in pockets the same as K frames don't!
 
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