PM9 neither passed NOR failed... now what?!

Status
Not open for further replies.

jlh26oo

Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Messages
1,053
Rather than adding my range report to the tongue-in-cheek "I didn't take the high road :( " thread (which was getting weird), I'll sum up & include it here.

Was between g26 and pm9 for pocket carry, ultimately went with pm9 on a reliabilityleap of faith, as it was so much lighter and slimmer in my pocket.

Got it in thursday, sat on it for a few days, finally got it to the range yesterday:

I brought 450 total rounds of CCI aluminum, WWB fmj & jhp. Logged all failures by ammo type and magazine; all ammo types split evenly through the flush mag and the +1 extended mag.

Started with a hundred through each mag before I got to jhp's- 3 failures to FIRE with the flush mag within the first 50 rounds- from the same box; so it could have been ammo related- except that upon inspection, there were no visible primer strikes. These three ftf's were the only failures of any kind with the FLUSH mag.

The +1 extended mag otoh, had a few more problems. Twice (once with jhp's once with ball) the slide locked back prematurely, and a few failures to feed. All the way out to the end. Not many, but they were evenly distributed during and after the "break in" period (200 rounds).

Anyways, as it will be pocket carried, I would be using only the flush mag, so I can dump the +1 (or send it back to kahr, maybe weak spring), and just focus on whether I am comfortable with the performance of the flush.

The problem is, I thought I brought enough ammo to come away (three hours later) with a definite decision one way or another. I don't know why I thought it would either run perfectly (= keep it), or have a failure every other mag (= dump it); but it kind of landed in no man's land- just enough trouble to make the decision hard.

Functioning aside, some +/-'s of overall impressions kind of surprised me. Only prior experience with kahr trigger was dry fire, and a couple of mags through a pm40. Not too heavy, very smooth, and crisp break, but the length of pull and long reset only complaints there. Minor though, and I can get used to it.

Accuracy impressed me. Was able to shoot it alot better than I expected. POA = POI with CCI, and the jhp's cloverleafed at 7 yards. Not so much with WWB fmj :barf: (soot)- POI was even a little high/left(?!). But very impressed with the overall shootability of this little thing- it didn't even seem to matter if I had the +1 in there to grip, or whether using the pinky dangling mag (with large hands, the circumference of the grip itself took more getting used to than anything else).

I told myself I wouldn't worry about the following issues- so these are not complaints as much as observations on the polymer frame. Overall pretty rough for a non "budget/value" pistol. Attached is an up close photo that shows much thicker mold lines it as compared to for instance glocks (which do have them too); and a giant BUTTON left from the injection molding on the top rear of the frame. Just in general, the frame could be much smoother, plastic "hairs" along the edges scraped off with a fingernail, no biggie. The slide otoh is very nicely sculpted. Controls are great- even the too sharp slide release is not too bad for me, even after hundreds of rounds (apparently those get rounded off alot, due to sore thumbs).

Overall, I'm not disappointed, but not impressed either. Don't know where to go with it now. Won't make a rash decision. Figure I at least owe it another range trip, with a few different boxes of jhp's, and the flush mag only. If it makes it through that, I think I'll keep it (or at least until GLOCK releases their 3" single stack nine at the shot show... lol i won't hold my breath).
 
OK, so it wasn't perfect right out of the box. That doesn't terribly surprise me - a lot of power-to-weight/size in the little pistol.

Here are a few suggestions that I would try if it were my PM9:

-Buy several different types/brands of ammo - pocket pistols can be selective.
-Find out how to lube your gun properly. I know you know how to lube a handgun, but research what Kahr owners that are having success are doing on their's and try that.
-Bring your cleaning kit to the range. After 25 rounds, field strip it, wipe down the ramp, chamber, and feed lips of the mag. No need to scrub the bore, etc. Yes, it is a bit of a PITA. Once it is proven reliable you can go longer. Pocket pistols are made to be used under fairly ideal (if scary) conditions. It would be nice if you could only clean it every 10,000 rounds and store it in a bucket of sand each night and have it perfect; but what you need it to do is always fire 7-14 rounds of ammo without fail every time. Give it the best chance possible by making a realistic goal - 25 to 50 rounds is way more than you will ever shoot in a self-defense situation with your PM9.
-Start with one mag at a time. Dumb down the possibilities by reducing the variables.

Above all else, be patient and don't get frustrated. Find a Kahr group and poke around the threads a while - lots of good advice there. You chose the Kahr over the Glock for its diminutive size, but there is a trade off in that it won't be bombproof-reliable like the Glock under any circumstance. It can/will be reliable under conditions you will carry it in, but you need to stick with it a while. If Glock could make a pistol that size that was as foolproof as most of their other stuff, they would - hasn't happened yet.
 
-Buy several different types/brands of ammo - pocket pistols can be selective.
-Find out how to lube your gun properly. I know you know how to lube a handgun, but research what Kahr owners that are having success are doing on their's and try that.
-Bring your cleaning kit to the range. After 25 rounds, field strip it, wipe down the ramp, chamber, and feed lips of the mag. No need to scrub the bore, etc. Yes, it is a bit of a PITA. Once it is proven reliable you can go longer. Pocket pistols are made to be used under fairly ideal (if scary) conditions. It would be nice if you could only clean it every 10,000 rounds and store it in a bucket of sand each night and have it perfect; but what you need it to do is always fire 7-14 rounds of ammo without fail every time. Give it the best chance possible by making a realistic goal - 25 to 50 rounds is way more than you will ever shoot in a self-defense situation with your PM9.
-Start with one mag at a time. Dumb down the possibilities by reducing the variables.

Hey thanks for the encouragement pg. Tried a few different types yesterday, plan on trying a few more next time. All jhp's this time. You're right, I'll give it better odds of success by NOT force feeding too many boxes at once-- lol I heated that little sucker right up! I'm lubing it according to the attached "kahr lube points" photo/diagram (attached- edit to credit "michigun" from gt kahr club) but I'll follow your suggestion and do so more often. Planning on switching to militec too (from rem oil currently), if it makes a diffrence. Anything you'd tweak on that?

Ultimately, I DO have to let go of "perfect" standards; glocks and REAL pocket pistol sized pistols are two different animals. If glock made something as thin as that, with an offset feed ramp, and that tight, I would assume it would run similarly.

I was advised by the kahr folk to go with both mags, and just log failures of each. Complicated, but I kept it all straight. Next time, I'll go your route, since I've already made my decision regarding the +1 mag:mad:, I'll just bring a few differnt boxes of jhp's and ONLY the flush mag. Clean/lube every 100. Every 25 is just too ridiculous for me, even if only initially. May be what it ultimately needs, but if so, it's just not for me. I get the point about only needing to shoot 7 at a time, but for me to trust even as little as seven, I want to know that it'll do ten times that without fail. It's like an overtest or something, I want to see it do more, in tougher conditions than what I'll use it in, then I'll have th highest confidence in it in nicer conditions... but don't worry, I'll NOT be burying it in sand or throwing it from airplanes LOL! I just got a little carried away with yesterday. I'll give it a fighting chance next time at least, follow your advice, and get back with you on how it went.

Gonna go with more 147gr jhp's (cheap) I guess, and a box of rangers my brother has on hand... any other suggestions on different jhp bullet-types I can test (preferably not $25 a box, as this experiment is getting costly)?

Thanks much.
 

Attachments

  • KahrLubePoints.jpg
    KahrLubePoints.jpg
    187.6 KB · Views: 73
I did my original 200 round break-in using cheap Wally World Winchester White Box (WWWWB) 9mm, with only a couple of failures to feed. After that, I have been stellar with just about any HP, and carry SXTs or Golden Talons or Gold Dots in mine, depending on whatever is cheapest when I am buying.

Stick to the Kahr Lube diagram. I strip mine down, clean and re-lube weekly. I have almost 1,500 rounds through my PM9 now (it gets shot some with carry ammo most every range trip), and it is still clocking along.
 
Add the following to your PM9:

Pearce grip extensions for your mags. A 'AGRIP' wrap for your grip. Both really help in controllability.
 
I have found +P ammo tends to do much better in my two PM9s than regular ammo and have been very happy with Golden Saber in +P. Strangely, it seems to stop that failure to go fully into battery business.
 
My own performed very similarly to yours at first, eventually culminating in the slide literally hanging up and stopping on the frame. It took a trip back to Kahr, who replaced the barrel and recoil spring, to fix that. Also, it functions better if the magazine is not fully loaded. In other words, instead of loading a single round into the chamber from the magazine, removing the magazine, fully loading it and reinserting it into the gun, you fully load the magazine, chamber a round and leave the magazine in, making it a six- (or seven)- shot gun. Before I figured this out it would often fail to feed the second round (the top round in the magazine) after firing the one in the chamber. Now it runs like a champ.

Did you run all those 450 rounds through it in one session? Personally I would not have done that without stripping and cleaning it each 100 rounds or so. The first time I did that, I actually found metal and a few plastic shavings clinging to the bottom of the slide. It has not done this since then, however, remaining "clean."

Unlike a Glock which only requires minimal lubrication (and will run quite a while on none at all) this gun needs to be run "wet." Not dripping from every nook and cranny and staining your pocket, but you do need a visible film of lube. I like to take the lube of my choice (Breakfree, etc.) and apply it to contact areas with a cotton swab. By now you will have noticed the wear pattern (normal) on the top and bottom of the barrel. Wipe on a film of lube over all this, as well as the front and rear chamber shoulders. Also use the swab to "paint" the frame/slide rails. And put a drop of lube on the slide stop shaft, since the cutout in the barrel below the chamber rides over this and cams the barrel in and out of battery.
 
I'm sorry about your problems with reliability, but frankly this is the reason I carry a pocket revolver... :cool:
 
I haven't fired the PM, but...

I have shot an older Khar, I’m pretty sure it was a K9, if that is correct, and it functioned flawlessly. Of course the old one were all steel and ridiculously expensive and heavy
 
jlh2600 said:
Planning on switching to militec too (from rem oil currently), if it makes a diffrence. Anything you'd tweak on that?

I personally like FP-10 for oil and use some Shooter's Choice grease on selected spots of my Kel-Tecs corresponding to (1, 4, 5, 9, 10) in your pic. I don't own a Kahr, so you might want to stick with what Michigun posted. Militec-1 has an outstanding reputation, much better than Rem Oil, IMO. I have never heard anything good about Rem Oil, come to think of it.

jlh2600 said:
Clean/lube every 100. Every 25 is just too ridiculous for me, even if only initially. May be what it ultimately needs, but if so, it's just not for me. I get the point about only needing to shoot 7 at a time, but for me to trust even as little as seven, I want to know that it'll do ten times that without fail. It's like an overtest or something, I want to see it do more, in tougher conditions than what I'll use it in, then I'll have th highest confidence in it in nicer conditions...

I was thinking more along the lines of just wiping down a few areas with some CLP and a Q-Tip, and relubing the barrel lug and slide stop pin. For me it takes less than five minutes for the whole operation. If that is still too tedious, try every 50 rounds. A lot of its ability to perform well in an "overtest" was shed to make it easier to carry. I think any defensive firearm should to be able to go beyond what is needed, but the question is how far beyond it needs to go. Up to you to decide that for your own confidence level.

Double Naught Spy said:
I have found +P ammo tends to do much better in my two PM9s than regular ammo and have been very happy with Golden Saber in +P. Strangely, it seems to stop that failure to go fully into battery business.

I too have found that high quality, hot ammo often functions flawlessly in certain firearms that don't do well on cheap stuff. Hot stuff will likely compress the springs fully and then "rebound" the slide with more force, hence the more reliable feeding.
 
The Lone Haranguer said:
Also, it functions better if the magazine is not fully loaded. In other words, instead of loading a single round into the chamber from the magazine, removing the magazine, fully loading it and reinserting it into the gun, you fully load the magazine, chamber a round and leave the magazine in, making it a six- (or seven)- shot gun. Before I figured this out it would often fail to feed the second round (the top round in the magazine) after firing the one in the chamber. Now it runs like a champ.

This suggests that the recoil springs are simply not strong enough, or that something is increasing friction on the slide sufficiently to cause a problem that the recoil springs cannot overcome with a full mag inserted.
 
It totally amazes me how "mediocrity" can be so sugar-coated when a well advertized brand doesn't perform to our expectations...The Public Relations guru that came up with the "biggest excuse--the 200 RD Break-In" must be laughing his "big butt" off...:evil:
It's almost human nature after you pay the "bucks" to bend-over backward to find something good to say about it...
Thank goodness it wasn't one of my Llamas or Daewoo's or everyone would jump in and call it an "old-fashion POS" even though they know absolutely nothing about other firearms!:fire:
 
"PM9 neither passed NOR failed"

Actually, it did fail. Sorry. :(

I've heard enough Kahr owners report that their guns ran 100% after a predictable 200 rds of break-in to accept that as a fact of life with those guns. For the niche they fill (little autos in high calibers), it may not be such a bad deal if that's the platform you're after. But after 450 rounds of failures with both mags, there's something wrong with that gun. Period. Don't blinded by faith (and I've been there more than once, believe me :D).

It could be that your particular gun is rougher than normal and might wear in to 100% reliability after an extended break-in. How much that is...I dunno? Clean and lube thoroughly, have another go at it, with hotter ammo maybe, and see if it settles down. Might be less hassle to do that than to send it back immediately, but I wouldn't give it more than that.

(Just me).
 
Detail strip the entire slide to the last part, thoroughly inspect and clean everthing with a pressurized degreaser/solvent over a clean white rag then take a magnifier and look over the debris/guink looking for "sparkles".
I had a similar problem on the same model that turned out to be peeling chrome on the firing pin (stiker) and the striker spacer. I cleaned them up with a pick and some 400 emery and reassembled, lubed and retested and it worked fine. Dottie at Kahr sent me new parts for them and never requested the old ones as proof.. havent had a jam, misfire of any kind of failure in over 1200 rounds since. I use TW25 lube.
you picked the right weapon, imo.
 
Damyanky, are you serious? You did all that for Kahr?
I guess I'd expect more from a new weapon...I think Kahr owes you more than a thank you, other than not requesting the old parts....:rolleyes:
 
I actually enjoy working on pistols - solving a problem on one got me to buy several used "project" pistols that are now 100% reliable too. A lot of it is very easy to do, and requires only a few simple tools.
 
Give Kahr a chance to fix it before you dump it. I bought a P9 in March and it continued to suffer regular FTF's after 500 rounds. To be perfectl honest, I was rather disgusted by it and kicking myself for not buying a baby Glock.

Anyhoo, I sent it to Kahr and they polished everything up and returned it. It's worked perfectly ever since and I'm glad I bought it instead of the Glock. There are so many ways to carry it concealed -- pants pocket, coat pocket IWB, belly band, small belt pouch -- and no one has a clue I'm armed.
 
I know what you mean Pocketgun , I've actually bought some toads from friends in the hope of getting them going . So far I've gotten a CZ70 with a broken firing pin for half price , and old S&W M&P revolver that used to bind up , and a XD-40 with FTE problems . One new firing pin , tightening the the cylinder retaining ring and cleaning underthe extractor and TADA ! 3 great pistols for about 60% of retail . Sometimes the jewel just need a lil cleaning and TLC .
 
Nothing quite like the satisfaction of turning a briquette into a diamond. LOL

I see the other side. For $600+ there is an expectation that it will be perfect. Tiny pistols are a bit tricky though, and sometimes need the extra effort. Add in full 9mm power and it is just tough to produce such a pistol with a near 100% reliability right out of the box, with any type of ammo, and with every shooter.
 
Well, that's a really small gun, and that slide stop is pretty pronounced. Its a lot different shooting a really small semi-automatic. You need a GOOD, FIRM grip. I'm not suggesting you pansy-arsed it, but even those few might be a result of a poor grip that previous shot, or you bumping that slide stop just enough. Seriously, you almost need to just shoot it at no target at all and concentrate on nothing but the cycling of the gun to diagnose your problems.


And, yes, a clogged firing pin hole happens. It'll drive ya crazy until you figure it out.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top