Pocket guns. 380 versus 38 special snub

CDW4ME

CDW4ME

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Testing using heavy clothed clear gel, which may not be perfect but allows for consistent comparison.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

No, there is not a 380 bullet that compares to the 38 special 130 HST micro 13'' / .73

That said, lets look at the performance of some others from a 2'' barrel.
Only loads that penetrate at least 12'' and not over 18''
38 special:
Hornady 110 FTX+P 13.1'' / .48
Hornady 125 XTP 16.7'' / .35
Remington 158 LSWCHP+P 14.3'' / .40
Speer 135 Gold Dot +P short barrel 13.6'' / .44

380:
Hornady 90 gr. Critical Defense 13.2'' / .52
Sig 90 gr. V Crown 12.8'' / .51
Remington 102 Ultimate Def 15.9'' / .40
Hornady 90 XTP 14.1'' / .39

Though the 380 can't compete with the best 38 special load(s) it performs comparably to some including +P.

Now, lets compare handguns.
https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/smith-wesson-model-442-vs-ruger-lcp-max
https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/smith-wesson-model-442-vs-ruger-lcp

S&W 442 (snub) L - 6.3'' / H 4.3'' / W 14.7 ounces / 5 rounds capacity
Ruger 380 LCP L - 5.2 '' / H 3.9'' / W 9.6 ounces / 7 rounds capacity
Ruger LCP MAX L - 5.2'' / H 4.1'' / W 10.6 ounces / 11 rounds capacity

The 380's are smaller, lighter and have a capacity advantage.
Overall advantage goes to ... 380 :D
 
I think we should be looking at the 380 with a longer barrel to compare the size of the firearm to firearm, not just the barrel lenght. In a semi auto, the barrel is longer for the same size firearm, so - in an apples to apples comparison 380 will get more uptick in velocity due to the longer barrel in the same overall lenght firearm, no?
 
I like my LCP, a great gun and the gun to have when one would normally have to consider going unarmed. Smaller autos however can suffer from reliability issues that their larger brothers don’t. It’s not an autos are unreliable comments it is a shooter error due to the minuscule size.

Big trend lately is a few larger .380’s like the new Beretta and the S&W offerings. I would like to see how much the extra 1”+ barrel lengths improve ballistics. The .380 is at a good point of expansion velocity even from the tiny guns, penetration from what I have seen can be marginal. However, the .38 is always at the lower end of the spectrum velocity wise. Some rounds work but at the Specials 1 7/8” barrel velocity it is akin to a miracle sometimes.

So many good rounds (and some just hype) available now it’s hard to keep track. Thanks for the post.
 
Personally, and I understand I sound like a broken record... the advantage is whichever you can shoot the best. I don't shoot small revolvers well, although I'll admit the older I get I have a hard time with small autos, too. The important thing is to 1) bring a pistol, and 2) be able to hit your target. I'd take 2 hits with FMJ over 3 misses with JHP's any day, and twice on Sunday.
 
A heavier bullet with more penetration and similar expansion, 38 over 380 EVERY day for me. I've had a 380 and was so underwhelmed I'll never give it a second look. Just me though. If I want a micro semiauto to do more I'll do my 365 9mm. There really is zero purpose or use for a 380 IMHO, again, just me.
 
I’ve been carrying a Sig P232 lately. Absolutely a pleasure to carry.

it’s loaded with Buffalo Bore hardcast .380’s.

Under penetration is not a concern.
 
I used to have several snub nosed .38s. Now I have none, but do have a G42, which I load with Underwood 68gr Xtreme Defense .380 +P.

https://underwoodammo.com/380-acp-p-65-grain-xtreme-defender/

Is it safe in my gun? So far. I've shot maybe 2 boxes of it, so 40 rounds. My wife limp wristed one round, resulting in a failure to feed. Otherwise, it's been fine.

As far as performance goes, depends on who you ask. Some say the bullet design is a gimmick, others who've shot meat with them say it's not. There are plenty of videos out there. It'll certainly penetrate adequately.
 
film495 said:
I think we should be looking at the 380 with a longer barrel to compare the size of the firearm to firearm, not just the barrel lenght. In a semi auto, the barrel is longer for the same size firearm, so - in an apples to apples comparison 380 will get more uptick in velocity due to the longer barrel in the same overall lenght firearm, no?
Click to expand...

Lucky Gunner used a Glock 42 for their tests.
Glock 42 - L 5.9'' / H 4.1'' / W 13.7 ounces. which has a 3.2'' barrel including the chamber and the Glock is still smaller & lighter than a snub.
(snub) L - 6.3'' / H 4.3'' / W 14.7 ounces

Considering about 1'' of the Glock 42 barrel is chamber that barrel length is fair to compare to a 2'' snub which does not include the chamber (cylinder).
 
Godsgunman said:
A heavier bullet with more penetration and similar expansion, 38 over 380 EVERY day for me. I've had a 380 and was so underwhelmed I'll never give it a second look. Just me though. If I want a micro semiauto to do more I'll do my 365 9mm. There really is zero purpose or use for a 380 IMHO, again, just me.
Click to expand...

That is not always the case, as I had in the OP
38 Special:
Remington 158 LSWCHP+P 14.3'' / .40
380:
Remington 102 Ultimate Def 15.9'' / .40

Here is another example:
Denim over clear gel. 38 special 158 XTP 16'' penetration with no expansion, 125 XTP 14.5'' penetration with no expansion.


Denim over clear gel 380 V-Crown 90 gr. 24'' penetration with no expansion.


The heavier bullet does not always penetrate further and no I can't explain why.
 
CDW4ME said:
That is not always the case, as I had in the OP
38 Special:
Remington 158 LSWCHP+P 14.3'' / .40
380:
Remington 102 Ultimate Def 15.9'' / .40

Here is another example:
Denim over clear gel. 38 special 158 XTP 16'' penetration with no expansion, 125 XTP 14.5'' penetration with no expansion.


Denim over clear gel 380 V-Crown 90 gr. 24'' penetration with no expansion.


The heavier bullet does not always penetrate further and no I can't explain why.
Click to expand...

I totally understand. Bullet performance is very important. One really need to vet and see what performs best for their platform. The 158 gr bullet stopping at 14.3" is much better (for me) than a 90 gr acting like a fmj. My main point though if I want something better than 38 special I'd just go with a micro 9 that is the same size as a 380 yet outperforms it and ammo is cheaper. Again, just me.
 
flightsimmer said:
I have always measured from the breech face.
A 4-in revolver has effectively the same length barrel is a 5-in autoloader.
Click to expand...
Not really an apples-to-apples comparison though, since a bullet from a revolver loses some amount of velocity due to the cylinder gap.
 
If you're getting roughly the same penetration but with a 50% heavier projectile, are you not gaining greater capacity to damage bone structures? Which could be important in an emergency?
 
Pistolay said:
Not really an apples-to-apples comparison though, since a bullet from a revolver loses some amount of velocity due to the cylinder gap.
Click to expand...

Well, technically it loses some pressure at the cylinder gap, after the bullet has passed it. But as the bullet passes it, the bullet is subject to a short section of free bore, where it does not have to fight any appreciable friction. And that allows it at accelerate more rapidly. So it's not quite so clear cut.
 
I carried a LCR357 loaded with .38Spcl ARX 77 grain for years. Now my primary EDC is a 9mm CSX loaded with ARX 65 grain. I went to a semi-auto for capacity. My bug was a LCP and now a LCP Max loaded with .380 ARX 56 grain. I quite often carry the LCP Max as my primary because of it's concealability and light weight. I'm convinced the the .380 is superior to the .38Spcl in velocity and performance.
 
It boils down to which caliber you are most proficient with and which gives you the confidence to carry in any scenario. Personally I am more proficient with my Springfield 911 than I am with my Smith and Wesson 642 snub nose. I am more accurate with the .380 and if it is about self defense I want to carry the firearm I can actually hit my target with consistently regardless of caliber. If you are proficient, in my opinion caliber should not be the main deciding factor.
 
I carry one or the other most of the time. They are both fine. They will poke holes in things. I shoot revolvers better, so prefer 38 special for that reason more than anything. If I can't conveniently carry anything else, it's an LCPII.

I carry JHP in revolvers and FMJ in 380's.
 
Some of my trousers’ pockets can, thankfully, accommodate weapons considerably larger than J-snubs and micro-three-eighties.
 
CDW4ME said:
Testing using heavy clothed clear gel, which may not be perfect but allows for consistent comparison.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

No, there is not a 380 bullet that compares to the 38 special 130 HST micro 13'' / .73

That said, lets look at the performance of some others from a 2'' barrel.
Only loads that penetrate at least 12'' and not over 18''
38 special:
Hornady 110 FTX+P 13.1'' / .48
Hornady 125 XTP 16.7'' / .35
Remington 158 LSWCHP+P 14.3'' / .40
Speer 135 Gold Dot +P short barrel 13.6'' / .44

380:
Hornady 90 gr. Critical Defense 13.2'' / .52
Sig 90 gr. V Crown 12.8'' / .51
Remington 102 Ultimate Def 15.9'' / .40
Hornady 90 XTP 14.1'' / .39

Though the 380 can't compete with the best 38 special load(s) it performs comparably to some including +P.

Now, lets compare handguns.
https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/smith-wesson-model-442-vs-ruger-lcp-max
https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/smith-wesson-model-442-vs-ruger-lcp

S&W 442 (snub) L - 6.3'' / H 4.3'' / W 14.7 ounces / 5 rounds capacity
Ruger 380 LCP L - 5.2 '' / H 3.9'' / W 9.6 ounces / 7 rounds capacity
Ruger LCP MAX L - 5.2'' / H 4.1'' / W 10.6 ounces / 11 rounds capacity

The 380's are smaller, lighter and have a capacity advantage.
Overall advantage goes to ... 380 :D
Click to expand...
My two main carries. I like .38 snubbies and .380 pocket guns.

Another important factor, my .380 Bodyguard is significantly smaller than my 642 snubbie.
 
ms6852 said:
It boils down to which caliber you are most proficient with and which gives you the confidence to carry in any scenario. Personally I am more proficient with my Springfield 911 than I am with my Smith and Wesson 642 snub nose. I am more accurate with the .380 and if it is about self defense I want to carry the firearm I can actually hit my target with consistently regardless of caliber. If you are proficient, in my opinion caliber should not be the main deciding factor.
Click to expand...
Second major point, it is easier and takes less training to shoot a pocket .380 well compared to a snubbie. This matters greatly when one takes account how little many train.
 
WheelGunMan said:
I carried a LCR357 loaded with .38Spcl ARX 77 grain for years. Now my primary EDC is a 9mm CSX loaded with ARX 65 grain. I went to a semi-auto for capacity. My bug was a LCP and now a LCP Max loaded with .380 ARX 56 grain. I quite often carry the LCP Max as my primary because of it's concealability and light weight. I'm convinced the the .380 is superior to the .38Spcl in velocity and performance.
Click to expand...
Not out of a larger revolver. Full power .38 out of a 4 inch barrel can get into light .357. Much more than .380. Out of a pocket gun, probably a lot closer to each other.
 
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