Pocket knives - Chinese?

[JerryM]

I have a soft spot for pocket knives. My first knife that I spent my money on was a Case stockman with yellow handles. I bought it from the Jottum Down Store (sp?) in Pine Ridge, AR after a quail hunt MANY years ago.

In looking over the offerings on eBay I noticed some Boker Magnums. I know that Boker Germany makes some quality knives, but the Magnums are from China.
I decided to see what they were like if cheap enough. I bid less than $4.00 for a Magnum Stockman, and won it. Upon receipt I am impressed with the quality. The blades snap in and out, are sharp and the handles are red plastic stag.
I do not think that Boker would put their name on junk, but have not used the knife. Actually I don't use a knife now for much except opening packages.

I am curious as to the experience you might have had regarding Chinese made knives with "good" names on them? You don't need to tell me that you wouldn't own such junk. I am looking for experience.
Thanks.
Jerry

 

[Pistola]

I think they almost all use cheap 440A blade steel, so I never buy them.
(such as some china made Winchester knives I got for a present)

 

[451 Detonics]

A couple points...

1. Not all Chinese made knives are created equal just as all US made knives aren't equal. There is junk made there and there is junk made here.
2. Not all Chinese made knives use the same steel, some use the same high end steel as many custom maker in the US use.
3. You can pay for a "name" but the name on a knife does not affect quality, just price.
4. There are many manufacturers in China. Some like the factories that make Rough Rider and many of the other US branded knives like the Winchester use less expensive steels for the low end knives. But the also use better steels as well, it depends on what the jobber specifies.
5. Most Chinese manufacturers are now using state of the art CNC machinery to produce these knives.

A few examples...

This is a Colt branded knife. This is the latest of the recent (past 30 years) incarnations of that brand on a line of knives and I think the best in the last 30 years. The steel is 420HC and on the Colts seems to be properly hardened. I had one tested and it was right at 57rc. The grinds are just about perfect, knife was shaving sharp from the factory, scales are bone, not plastic. Fit and finish is superior to the last couple of Case knives I bought.



The above Colt is higher priced than the Rough Rider and it is becoming harder to buy them as cheap on ebay as more people are becoming aware of their quality.

Next example is a much higher end knife than the Colts. This one was spec'ed out by AG Russell, one of the two men responsible for forming the Knife Makers Guild in the US and the driving force behind the large movement to custom knives here in the US.

This is a quote from the review I wrote on the knife...

The past has finally caught up to the present and the 2010 Texas Ranger Commemorative knife from AG Russell has arrived. I received my 2010 from Phil Gibbs earlier this week and have been putting it through some trials. First impressions were much like the ones I had when I opened up the 2009 knife...this thing is BIG. Like the men it commemorates it is larger than life, a knife for a man who knows he is a man. (metrosexuals need not apply) In the hand it is a solid 10 ounce chunk of steel and ebony Rucarta. The handle is 4 5/8th long and 1 1/2 inches wide at the swell. The blade, made from 8Cr15MoV, is 3 5/16ths, an astounding 1 1/2 inches wide, and just a couple hundredths shy of being 1/4 inch thick. This is not a knife that apologizes for being a knife in today's politically correct world. It fills the hand and inspires confidence much as the Paterson Colt inspire confidence in those who used it to tame the Texas outlaws.

I would put this up against any factory made US knife regardless of the price.





What does this all boil down to? It is the skill of the craftsman that counts, not where he lives.

 

[hso]

I agree with 451Detonics, "Chinese" no longer means junk.

We used to think things labeled "Made In Japan" were junk. They learned to make better quality products and we learned to change our minds. Now the marking "Japan" is synonymous with quality.

We used to think things labeled "Made in Taiwan" were junk. They learned like the Japanese and so did we.

Now the Chinese are producing products and learning they can make a greater profit producing quality in some areas. The Germans taught them metallurgy and we're teaching them quality control. They still produce high volume low quality knives, but they are capable of producing very reasonable quality and at times produce very high quality knives. The marking "China" isn't synonymous with quality, but we're finding out they can and do produce quality when they want to.

What does that boil down to? Look at the knife before rejecting it out of hand instead of just assuming the country of origin makes any difference these days.

 

[JerryM]

Hi 451Detonics,

Thanks to you, and hso for the responses. I do appreciate it.
There is certainly no problem of the Chinese being able to make quality merchandise if they get the specs, and the company holds fast to good QC.

I note that you mentioned Rough Rider. I am not familiar with that brand, although I read of it recently.

Do you have an opinion of the quality of Rough Rider knives? Thanks, again.

Regards,
Jerry

 

[ArfinGreebly]

U.S. Classic

I have a number (3 or 4) U.S. Classic folders in an unidentified steel but with smooth bone handles.

They are Wharncliffe Half-Whittlers (a full whittler has two small blades and a single large Wharncliffe blade).

Sharp as the dickens out of the box, strong snap, excellent fit & finish.

The company is based in Kentucky. Their manufacturing is all done in China. What they did was, with the cooperation of knife collectors, carefully disassembled a number of classic U.S. legacy designs, reproduced the patterns and took them overseas for production. Each pattern was run as a one-time limited production, a specific count of each knife.

When I bought mine, they were $7 and $8 bucks, but as their popularity has grown and the supply has been depleted, they have gone up to double and triple that.

I'm surprisingly happy with the ones I got, even with the no-name steel.

Oh, and for those of you who hate idea of having the word "China" stamped into your blade in 12-point letters too deep to ever be removed, I kind of appreciated the discreet way in which the blades were marked on the U.S. Classic knives.

The brand name is stamped in the tang and etched large on the blade, with a couple of circular emblems at either end, which require a magnifying glass or really good eyes to read. One of them has the "Salt River, KY" text in the border, and the other has "China" in its border. It's there all right, but it doesn't jump out and spoil the effect of an otherwise attractive classic American pocket knife pattern.

These were certainly cheap, and they're still inexpensive, but I find from using mine that they are not junk.

To be fair, I do have some Magnums that are, in fact, junk, but they are not current production. I also have a Chinese Gerber that's in the "cheap" class, and one that's really good (it's the Harsey design). I have some Rapala Chinese production that's good, and some that's not. The Swedish and Finnish Rapala pieces are uniformly better. My Chinese production Buck knives are all good -- outstanding, actually. I have a Chinese unbranded 3-inch folder that's a match to something I've seen for sale under the Winchester brand, and it's also pretty darn good for a $5 knife. And, of course, I have a handful of Chinese knives that are just crap. Not as bad as some of my adventures in Pakistani cutlery, but still crap.

I still prefer U.S. made for most knives, but frankly I've had bad luck with my Bear & Sons pieces, and they're U.S. made. I've had really god luck with everything I've gotten from Scandinavia, and most of my German pieces are well made, too. All the Argentina stuff I have is real quality, and I will get more of those. My "made in Japan" knives are almost without exception top quality. My Swiss pieces are good, but seldom outstanding. My Coleman Chinese SAK knockoff was crap.

China still has a way to go, taken as a national generality, but for specific cases, they're making excellent progress and, in some cases, they're already there.

The trick is to know who's doing quality. Gerber, CRKT, Buck, Spyderco, and Kershaw seem to have gotten the wrinkles out of their production, and their QC is generally excellent. Rough Rider is making a name for themselves for real quality that's still underpriced.

There are others. And there will be more.

 

[451 Detonics]

Rough Riders were the first Chinese made knives to really make a name for themselves on the US market. They are fairly inexpensive knives that use a lower priced steel. However more important than the type of steel used is the heat treating of that steel. I would much rather have a properly heat treated 440 than a poorly heat treated Cr12Mov.

In my thread here on the forun http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=577335&highlight=colt I show off my Colt collection. I have had many folks look at me in utter surprise when they hold them then see the "China" stamp on the back of the blades.

As I said the Chinese are using state of the art equipment that insures proper heat treatment and well as CNC machinery that allows for excellent fit and finish. I have seen several Son and Bears that had off centered blades, uneven grinds, and gaps in the fitting of the scales. Some of the new Case have these same problems as well.

The Chinese have moved into manufacturing segment of the world market in a big way. The number of components made in China on US made cars is surprisingly large these days. As for the money end of it I always try to buy from US venders thus insuring the majority of my money stays in the US. When you consider the import taxes, the wholesaler and distributor's cut as well as the retailer's profit you can see it does boost the US economy.

By the way...my next knife purchase (unless I make a spur of the moment buy...not unheard of) will be this sowbelly from AG Russell as soon as he gets the yellow Delrin in stock...

 

[Deltaboy1984]

My Rough Rider Barlow came out of the box so sharp the first to friends I showed it to cut themselves. I am happy with RR so far.

 

[451 Detonics]

The Rough Riders are definitely on lower rungs of the quality ladder. The steel is a bit softer than on the more expensive knives but they sharpen easily...just don't hold that nice edge as long. I don't have experience with all of the brands, there are just too many of them right now. Every jobber out there is having knives built with their names on them with many of them being rebranded Rough Riders. What you can look for in the higher rung knives is the quality of the jigging on the bone, little touches like long pulls and swedging on the blades and the packaging.

Here you can the the Colt on the left and the Rough Rider on the right. The Colt has the swedges on the blade, the classic long pull, the bone looks hand jigged, it has pinched bolsters, and I am sure, better blade steel from the testing I have had done. The Colt also comes in a nice presentation box.

 

[Piraticalbob]

I too have a Rough Rider I purchased, a Boy Scout pattern, and the only flaw I can find in it is the catch edge of the bottle opener is not hooked enough, so bottle caps tend to slide off of it.

I also have purchased a couple of Kissing Crane knives that are now made in China. One of them, another Boy Scout pattern with yellow bone scales, I am totally satisfied with, it's superior to similar knives that Camillus and Ka-Bar were making in the US just 20 years ago. It's on a level quality with current Case production.

 

[451 Detonics]

I'm really prefer my old Kabar over the Rough Rider, my Kabar has great fit and finish and still gets used occasionally...

 

[Fred Fuller]

I got a couple of the new Spyderco Chinese line a few weeks ago (Tenacious, plain edge, liner lock, G-10 scales). They were $20 each IIRC from one of the online shops. I've been carrying the pair for a while now and am satisfied with them so far. I reversed the clip on the one for the left pocket with no trouble, and have gotten by with merely cleaning the blade on that one and steeling it so far (removing tape glue from opening boxes and touching up from cutting cardboard mostly). The right pocket knife is reserved for ... other uses, the left pocket one gets the day to day chores. Nice that I haven't had to sharpen it yet, the blade steel (8Cr13Mov) isn't going to send shivers down the legs of any steel snobs, but it seems to work OK for the job at hand. Sharp and useable out of the box, a full flat grind blade is an advantage to slicing, the blade is a bit broad for its length but necessary to make room for the Spydie hole.

So far, one heck of a lot of knife for the money...

lpl

 

[JShirley]

The Spyderco Byrds were pretty good, and the new Spyderco line Lee mentions are GREAT. I especially like the Persistence.

 

[451 Detonics]

I have owned a couple of the Byrds, gifted them wawy but they were good knives. One I should of held onto was the FireByrd, now they are out of stock everywhere and those for sale are way above retail.

 

[Mp7]

i recently got flamed for this topic

But my 18$ chinese knives a very well made.
Obviously inspired by other designs ... but fit, finish
steel and grind are superb out of the box.

 

[Yo Mama]

I love my S & W SWAT II. It's a tank. Made in China. I got it before I was into more expensive knives, and still use it camping and hunting. I'd never dream of putting the expensive ones made in the US through what I've put the SWAT through.

 

[Gary G23]

I currently have a few Chinese knives:

Byrd Cara Cara 2
Spyderco Resilience
Spyderco Tenacious
Kershaw Tremor

They all have 8Cr13MoV blade steel which is the Chinese equivalent of Japanese AUS-8. I consider all of these not only good knives for the money, but good knives in general.

I have had some Gerber Chinese models that I got rid of. Gerber uses soft low carbon steel in their Chinese models and personally I don't want any more of those.

 

[451 Detonics]

They all have 8Cr13MoV blade steel which is the Chinese equivalent of Japanese AUS-8.

They are very close but I feel the higher carbon and lower nickle result in a finer grain and easier to sharpen steel. Also you tend to find higher molybdenum in the 8Cr12MoV.

 

[PRM]

I have a small knife business as a sideline. Over the last five years I have sold close to 1000 of the S&W brand knives. Made in China ~ great bargain for the money and one of my best sellers.

Colt, Rough Rider, some Marbles, Blackjack, and unless they have changed a few of the Buck line are being made there.

China has come a long way on their quality. Personally, If I want a working knife that is going to be used, abused and put through its paces ~ I'll go for a $20 knife and keep my more expensive knives in pristine condition.

 

[CWL]

Colt, Rough Rider, some Marbles, Blackjack, and unless they have changed a few of the Buck line are being made there.

I'm pretty sure that these are all made in the same factory that makes Rough Rider -including the Marbles folders before they went out of business.

 

[Sharpdogs]

Made in China no longer = garbage. There is a lot of good knives coming out of China. Take a look at the Spyderco's Tenacious, Ambitious, Persistence or Resilience line up. Spyderco just updated their Byrd line up to flat ground blades. If you want even more bang for you buck check out the Sanrenmu knives. I believe they make the Byrd line up for Spyderco.

 

[Slamfire]

The Rough Riders, John Primble, even Schrade labled Chinese knives that I have purchased have been worth exactly the $5.00 to $10.00 I paid for them.

While the fit and finish has been good, the steel is soft.

None of the chinese knives I have purchased take and hold an edge as well as the Queen, Schatt& Morgan, or recent Case knives I use. I am also happy with my Bear carbons Steel barlow, fit and finish are excellent and the 1095 steel properly heat treated.

One Chinese Buck knife was actually good.

 

[Gary G23]

Kershaw Tremor

Nine inches of Chinese goodness for $30. How can you go wrong?

 

[Harley Quinn]

Gary G23...
Yep, my thoughts also for a carry item, lose it, not a biggie...

 

[451 Detonics]

While the fit and finish has been good, the steel is soft.

In the lowest price tier this is often true but by getting into the $25.00 dollar tiers the soft steel seems to give way to better tempered blades. You have 2 or 3 big mass producers plus a larger number of smaller makers who do the higher end knives like the Spyderco's and AG Russell's. The knowledge of making great blade steel has been a long lived tradition in China, they have been doing it for a quite a few centuries but you aren't going to find that high end steel in a 5 dollar knife.