POF P415 Piston AR

[Archangel14]

Hello All:

I was in my LGS today and got to checking out the selection of piston AR's. I came across a Patriot Ordnance Factory ("POF") P415 AR. It felt very solid, well balanced and overall was very nicely put together. The finish was very nice. Other than what I can gather from the web, which is very little, I can't find out much about this rifle. Does anyone have any first hand experience with this or other POF rifles? If so, what's your opinion? Thanks!

 

[KansasSasquatch]

I dont own one but I've put a fair number of rounds through a friend of mine's rifle. Its a little front heavy, like most piston AR's. It will shoot under 1" groups at 100yards if the shooter is good enough, using cheap American Eagle 62gr XM855. If I remember correctly it has an adjustable gas block. The way his was set from the factory, firing that 62gr ammo felt like shooting a .22lr rifle, probably lighter, yet the action still cycled everytime. The trigger on his is excellent. Not so light that its something to worry about, but light enough and smooth enough to ensure a clean/crisp break. The finish on the rifle is supposedly above and beyond mil-spec. But one word if advice, if you're a reloader, definitely work up new loads for it and be prepared to buy some small base dies. The chamber in my friend's rifle is.very tight and my regular .223 sizing die wasnt l to the task. If i had the money for a high dollar AR, I'd definitely consider a POF rifle.

 

[briansmithwins]

For me, the question is what problem does a gas piston variant AR solve for you?

You're paying more for the gas piston system (which could be spent on a aftermarket trigger, optic, free float tube...) and the down side is that you're locked into POF for spare parts and all aftermarket accessories may not work with the POF unit.

A gas piston AR will keep the receiver cleaner and stay wet with lube longer. OTOH, given the same barrel quality a DI AR is going to be more accurate with less work.

I like gas piston driven, adjustable gas regulator rifles*. I remain to be convinced that the AR family is improved by adding a forward gas piston.

BSW

*SCAR, FS2000, Steyr AUG, Sig 55x

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I'm not sure it's so much 'what problem does it solve' as which rifle do you like best. But it's less of a chore to clean a piston gun.

 

[MikieG]

Looks like the ford/chevy situation is coming. Funny thing about this is Gene designed a piston rifle. The whiz kids chose d.i. because it was 22 bucks per rifle unit cheaper. They changed the powder. Oh , and they also said you didnt need to clean the rifle. I went with Gene on this one.
POF makes operator grade weapons. Lwrci comes to mind. If these are out of your pay grade, commercial/hobby grade ends and operator grade begins with the Sig 516/716 .
Folks think that these guns are "just" piston guns. These are engineered far beyond anything you can put together at your kitchen table. Just the coatings on the barrel and bcg are likely to cost more than your kit gun. They are even ambi now!
When the kids that are sent to do the real work get home, watch where they put THEIR money.
Whats your life worth? Id sell an arm load of junk to afford just one operator grade weapon. After all, one is all you need.

 

[Archangel14]

Uggghhh, I somehow anticipated that my inquiry concerning the quality of the POF 415 from people with actual experience with the firearm would denigrate into a "DI vs. piston" argument. I actually had my eye set on a RR DI AR, but when I went to my LGS I saw a number of piston AR's and recalled a few acquaintances of mine who swear by their piston AR's. One guy, in particular, who has seen several tours of duty as a 2nd Battalion Ranger and who was part of a "seek and snatch" team, swears by his HK 416. Now, I know that the POF 415, or even the Sig 516, are not the top-shelf quality that the HK 416 is, but based upon some very respectful personal opinion I must conclude that the piston driven AR's are reliable, quality firearms (assuming the manufacturer is such). I was totally unaware of POF, hence my original inquiry. I've held and examined the 415 and, simply from observation, it looked like a higher quality AR. It also has an interesting "E2" ejection system, and I refer you to POF's website for an explanation.

So, I beg, if anyone has personal experience with the 415 please relay your thoughts. I beg, PLEAD even, that this thread, should it continue, not fall into the worn and inconclusive DI vs. piston argument. Thanks mates.

 

[MikieG]

The HK is unreasonably priced for what it is. There will be very little response to your question as very very few folks can afford this level of quality.
I chose LWRCI REPR. But not because POF was inferior. Trust me, it is in no way a Rock River Arms rifle. It will serve you a lifetime. But then again, so will brand X that sits in the closet and maybe sees 550 rounds in its life.

 

[Archangel14]

But then again, so will brand X that sits in the closet and maybe sees 550 rounds in its life.

So true. I have a Weatherby Vanguard in 30-06 that has been absolutely 100% reliable and accurate in the 7 years I've owned it. Oh, I should mention that I've put exactly 25 rounds through it!

My goal is to obtain a be-all, end-all AR in 5.56 should things in society get a little rough. I'm not a dooms day-type by any means, but I'm not foolish enough to think that things will never get rough for us American freedom lovers. And I got to thinking, what makes the AK pattern rifle so well respected in the reliability department? The two main factors I keep hearing are that it's a long-stroke piston based rifle, and is "loose" in its tolerances (whatever that means). So, if logic serves me, a piston driven AR can't be a bad thing. Just because many DI AR's work well doesn't mean that we can't obtain a more reliable type of AR. It seems that you're sold on POF's product. Do you have experience with it? Thanks.

 

[MikieG]

Yup. I looked long and hard before dropping 4 grand on the LWRCI REPR. I only chose it because it was designed as a precision gun right from the drawing board.
Before looking at brands and models, id be looking at materials, heat treating as well as surface coatings.
We are light years away from parkerization. Folks worry about barrels. Even tho it is important, its not the failure point. Nobody can afford to truly shoot a barrel out. But we can certainly exceed bolt life.

 

[Jackal]

POF makes a good product. While there is no practical advantage to the piston system unless your shooting suppressed, its still a quality rifle. To all the folks who say that DI guns are harder to clean, what they need to understand is this: The working mechanisms that keep the rifle going are essentially self cleaning. Friction generally keeps crud out of the way of the bits that matter, thats why some folks have ran 10,000 rds through and AR without cleaning. Piston guns do stay cleaner, but there is no tangible/pragmatic benefit. After thousands of rounds, they both could use a cleaning, one will just take a little longer to detail out.

 

[ugaarguy]

Funny thing about this is Gene designed a piston rifle. The whiz kids chose d.i. because it was 22 bucks per rifle unit cheaper.

The piston that Eugene Stoner designed for the AR-10 and AR-15 is the back of the bolt within the carrier, not an operating rod piston system like your LWRC. If you don't believe that, you can read the original patent here - https://www.google.com/patents/US29...a=X&ei=EBQ7VNSyM9C6ggTCzYKADw&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA. The most relevant excerpt from that patent is the following paragraph:

"It is a principal object of this invention to utilize the basic parts of an automatic rifle mechanism such as the bolt and bolt carrier to perform a double function. This double function consists of the bolts primary function to lock the breach against the pressure of firing, and secondarily, to act as a stationary piston to actuate the automatic rifle mechanism. The primary function of the bolt carrier is to lock and unlock the bolt by rotating it and to carry it back and forth in the receiver. The secondary function of the bolt carrier is to act as a movable cylinder to actuate the automatic rifle mechanism. By having the bolt carrier act as a movable cylinder and the bolt act as a stationary piston, the need for a conventional gas cylinder, piston and actuating rod assembly is eliminated."

Stoner later designed an operating rod / short stroke piston action that used in the AR-16, and scaled down from 7.62 NATO to 5.56 NATO by Arthur Miller to become the AR-18. These were designed as cheap to produce stamped sheet metal receiver rifles for poor nations. They're only distantly related to the AR-10 and AR-15.

The piston system used in the Cadillac Gage built Stoner 63 is another development unto itself.

 

[Archangel14]

Piston guns do stay cleaner, but there is no tangible/pragmatic benefit. After thousands of rounds, they both could use a cleaning, one will just take a little longer to detail out.

I'm not an AR expert by any means, but I've seen the difference between the crude build up on a DI gun and a piston driven gun. It's not even close. After running a few hundred rounds through a friend's S&W (I believe it was PMC ammo), the bolt and receiver were filthy. A piston driven rifle with the same number of rounds had no discernible dirtiness to it. Clean as a whistle. To me, the fact that one system can get so very dirty in the most important area of the firearm is telling.

And there I went and did it. I turned my own post into a DI vs. piston argument when I asked everyone else to avoid it! I'm an idiot!

 

[MCMXI]

I have two POF rifles, a P415 with a 16" barrel and a P308 with a 20" barrel. Both are sub moa with a number of quality factory loads and are easily 1/2 moa with reloads. Both are extremely reliable and since I use them almost exclusively now with suppressors I appreciate how easy it is to clean them. POF designed their rifles to run without lubrication but I use a little since I'm not in the middle east. The only odd thing is that brushes and patches don't follow the lands and grooves in the barrels when cleaning. I have zero regrets with both purchases. Here's the P308.

 

[MCMXI]

I'm not an AR expert by any means, but I've seen the difference between the crude build up on a DI gun and a piston driven gun. It's not even close.

Now compare the two types after 100 rounds suppressed!

 

[MachIVshooter]

I'm not an AR expert by any means, but I've seen the difference between the crude build up on a DI gun and a piston driven gun. It's not even close. After running a few hundred rounds through a friend's S&W (I believe it was PMC ammo), the bolt and receiver were filthy. A piston driven rifle with the same number of rounds had no discernible dirtiness to it. Clean as a whistle. To me, the fact that one system can get so very dirty in the most important area of the firearm is telling.

OK, for starters, and once again in this thread, the Stoner design for the AR-10 and 15 is NOT direct impingement. It is a piston system. The difference is where it lives, and the result it a half ounce gas tube instead of a half pound cylinder & op rod assembly.

Moving on, whether one finds the carbon deposits in a conventional AR offensive or not is immaterial. The simple fact is that the system works, and works well. Millions upon millions of rifles in military and civilian hands around the world have demonstrated this, and the AR platform is second only to the Kalashnikov where proliferation on the modern battlefield is concerned.

What most people who parrot the "poop where it eats" line don't understand is that the conventional AR vents excess gas out of the two ports on the bolt long before the gas key pulls away from the end of the tube. What ends up inside the receiver is a miniscule residual quantity that amounts to nothing from a functionality standpoint. Any autoloading rifle is going to end up with some junk in the receiver; the stuff comes out of the case during extraction.

I don't care one way or the other if people have a preference for a nose heavy op rod AR. I simply tire of the myth propagation more and more quickly as it is regurgitated by more and more people who really don't understand how the conventional AR works.

 

[MCMXI]

Deleted.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Yawn ....

Excuse me? Is there something in my statement you take issue with, or are you just being rude?

Not the sort of response I'd expect from you after the discourse we've had in myriad threads over the last half dozen years.

 

[MCMXI]

You're right ... that was rude so I apologize and will delete my post. I was irritated by the comment below ....

if people have a preference for a nose heavy op rod AR.

.... since a suppressor adds 12 to 20 oz to the end of the barrel.

 

[MachIVshooter]

since a suppressor adds 12 to 20 oz to the end of the barrel.

Very true. I wouldn't have taken offense had I known it was that specifically. I just find most people doing everything they can with lighter profile barrels and featherweight handguards to get nose weight down and keep the balance right. Adding 6-8 ounces of op rod system seems counter-productive whilst solving an imaginary problem.

I admittedly have limited experience with supressed ARs, though, and have never played with a supressed op rod AR, so I cannot comment as to one system working better than the other in that regard.

 

[MachIVshooter]

AR failures come from two places.
Failure to extract. And failure to eject. Both rely on very small diameter wire wound springs to provide high pressures. When the rifle goes thru cycles of heat and cool, these springs loose their heat treat as well as take a set producing lower pressures.
Moral of the story? Dont dump super heated carbon laden gasses into the heart of your weapon.

Oh, good lord. Here we go again. Someone who insists that the AR is direct impingement is now going to "educate me" about "cycles of heat and cool" (we call them thermal cycles, BTW) affecting springs at the front of the bolt, where more heat transfer comes from the cartridge cases and chamber than the gas pushing on the piston all the way to the rear of the bolt.

Seriously, bud, you're not going to win these arguments. <deleted>

 

[Archangel14]

Clearly, all you guys have WAY more understanding and real experience with the AR platform than I do. I agree with MachIV that the DI system is a good, reliable system, just based upon the fact that our armed force use it, and to good effect it seems. Plus, I've never experienced a problem with one. On the other hand, I gotta side with what MickieG is saying. I mentioned in an earlier post my Army Ranger acquaintance who is presently with the 2nd Battalion. He has served multiple tours, has seen tons of action, has been horribly wounded, and has spent quite a bit of time discussing firearm function with me in what he calls "an operational setting". He has stated to me that the M4 is "s--t". Now, I don't think he meant it literally. What he meant was that compared to the HK416, it's not even close. In fact, he advised me to simply save my pennies and get one, as "it's freaking awesome". Now, I'm not about to drop $3,500 on an HK. But I think his reasoning was right on: the piston system made the AR 100% reliable and he simply didn't ever worry about the firearm failing. That's what brought my mind around to a piston driven system. And quite honestly, every time I clean an AR and I'm wiping out tons of crap and black lubricant from the bolt/receiver, I always find myself saying, "this can't be good."

Oh, another point: the same active Ranger advised me to forget the AR platform all together.....and that I should just get a standard Remmy 870!

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I don't understand why any mention of a given piston gun forces people to criticize the need for piston guns to exist. Buy a DI gun if you want one but why bash pistons? This isn't directed at anyone in particular, I just am baffled why a specific, answerable question about a specific brand and model of rifle is always answered with a non sequitur.

 

[HammsBeer]

To the OP, while I don't own a POF, I do own DI (BCM) and GP (Adams Arms) rifles and they work flawlessly. Accuracy and recoil is about the same, only difference is how long it takes to clean. So mentioning that, I would venture to say that a high tier manufacturer like POF would run just fine.

Keep in mind availability of proprietary spare parts should a manufacturer go out of business or change the design and quit producing old model parts. That's the only negative of GP designs, they are not standardized across the industry. But with DI a brand x bolt in a brand y carrier will run in a brand z upper just fine. But if you buy a high tier manufactured gun then chances are slim you would ever need it repaired, part of what you are paying for is machining consistency and quality control.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I don't understand why any mention of a given piston gun forces people to criticize the need for piston guns to exist. Buy a DI gun if you want one but why bash pistons? This isn't directed at anyone in particular, I just am baffled why a specific, answerable question about a specific brand and model of rifle is always answered with a non sequitur.

It's not a matter of bashing. It's no skin off my (or any else's) nose if a guy wants to buy an op rod AR. But he did ask for info, and part of that is helping him understand that the op rod adds weight and creates issues with parts compatibility and possibly supply due to each op rod system being prorietary.

POF makes nice rifles, and if the OP likes the one he's looking at just the way it is, then great. But should he decide he wants a different barrel profile or length, difference handguards or different front sight down the road, he's stuck with POF's offerings, or buying another upper. You're also paying a lot of money with them to get features that are of dubious benefit: Hulking billet receivers, special BCG coatings, anti-roll FCG pins, etc. At 7.7 lbs, The P415 16.5" is also a full pound heavier than a conventional govt profile carbine.

It is also annoying to see a gunmaker propagating the AR DI myth.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

It's not a matter of bashing. It's no skin off my (or any else's) nose if a guy wants to buy an op rod AR. But he did ask for info, and part of that is helping him understand that the op rod adds weight and creates issues with parts compatibility and possibly supply due to each op rod system being prorietary.

I get the impression the OP understands how the gun feels. Unless I read him wrong he's actually fondled it in the store.

POF makes nice rifles, and if the OP likes the one he's looking at just the way it is, then great. But should he decide he wants a different barrel profile or length, difference handguards or different front sight down the road, he's stuck with POF's offerings, or buying another upper. You're also paying a lot of money with them to get features that are of dubious benefit: Hulking billet receivers, special BCG coatings, anti-roll FCG pins, etc. At 7.7 lbs, The P415 16.5" is also a full pound heavier than a conventional govt profile carbine.

Very true. Yet this is a non-issue for a lot of people. Not every firearm needs to be "lego'd". The same could be said of virtually every gun on the market that's not a Glock, an AR or a 1911. No one else makes any parts for my HKs except HK and that's never stopped me from carrying a USP, USPc, P30S or VP9 almost every day.

Of course, your advice would probably also be that there are cheaper polymer pistols and that I'm wasting my money on "dubious QC expenditures" by HK. We get that stuff costs what it costs. Apparently the price doesn't bother the OP. Presumably he can read a price tag and knows the price is higher than a DPMS or M&P Sport. So I just have to ask- have you ever just bought a firearm because it was cool, it felt great to you and you liked it?

I'll go a step further- if I could afford it I'd buy me a bright shiny HK piston gun! Not because pistons are the be-all, end-all of rifles but because I love HKs. I love the look/trade dress, the way they're over-engineered and overbuilt, the history of the company and their philosophy. And I like that a rediculous splurge like that would subsidize the company and help them design more new guns like the VP9. Are you ever just a fan/gun nut or does every purchase have to fit within some overarching heirarchy of logical needs?

It is also annoying to see a gunmaker propagating the AR DI myth.

You totally lost me at this point. In what way are they "propagating the AR DI myth"? Is the existence of their product to be taken as a challenge to the right of DI guns to be sold? Or are you referring to some statement the company has made elsewhere? The OP sure didn't say a single bad word about DI guns that I could find.

This sounds a lot more argumentative than I mean it to, now that I look at it all laid out like this. Forgive me if it comes across that way. There must be more to this whole issue than is present in just the thread; I don't see what you're complaining about.