carebear
Member
Only if they support that with a statement that they vaguely recollect that the crime they are charged with wasn't a crime where they used to live.
Police apologize to Knoxville gun owner for stopping him
- Thread starter Drizzt
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Only if they support that with a statement that they vaguely recollect that the crime they are charged with wasn't a crime where they used to live.
Somehow I doubt it, ElT.
My druthers? Officer Greene be prosecuted if there actually is an applicable law to be broken by his threatening to arrest using bogus charges. If such a law exists I'd sure be interested in that being discussed. Lacking a law having been broken, dismissal for cause so someone with his ethical shortcomings is not in a position of legal authority.
El Tejon
Member
Why just stick to the threatening of the bogus charges?
I see Battery, Criminal Confinement, Denial of Civil Rights, Intimidation, all kinds of state as well as federal criminal charges on this potentially.
Whenever I think about this case and the "I thought this was Ohio" defense (I'm stealing this for my work), I think of that Reno 911! episode where the naked guy is waving a gun around in the bar claiming that no one told him using drugs was illegal.
I see Battery, Criminal Confinement, Denial of Civil Rights, Intimidation, all kinds of state as well as federal criminal charges on this potentially.
Whenever I think about this case and the "I thought this was Ohio" defense (I'm stealing this for my work), I think of that Reno 911! episode where the naked guy is waving a gun around in the bar claiming that no one told him using drugs was illegal.
chipperi
Member
No offense there JUGGERNAUT I agree with most everyone here. I was just stating someone else's point of view from an earlier conversation. There is no doubt that you are 100% right and the cop was 100% wrong. I just like to consider everyones point of view. I personally make a huge effort to keep concealed, My permit instructor told us that open carry is legal but not recommended, just for that reason, there are going to be some Higher than God big headed cops out there.
carebear
Member
On officer.com, one bright-eyed defender of liberty expressed the opinion that he shouldn't have been "pushing the issue" by carrying openly.
No way I'm registering on another forum, but I fail to see how explicitly following the law (carrying openly on an HCP) pushes anything. :banghead:
No way I'm registering on another forum, but I fail to see how explicitly following the law (carrying openly on an HCP) pushes anything. :banghead:
wheelgunslinger
Member
Yep. If the foot were on the other hand, they'd be "loading you up" with everything all the way down to aggravated nosepicking.
There are doofi in every profession. Unfortunately, some have a computer and an internet connection.
Robert Hairless
Member
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- 3,983
Oh gee. I thought that HSO and El Tejon were okay until I read that one. It's the trophy winner for sure.
CK
Member
Thumbs up. Way Up.
Tamara
Senior Member
All speculation aside...
...any civil attorney following this will know that Trevor's case is made of win.
As a Knoxwegian taxpayer (and at least 'til voir dire, potential juror), I am grateful for his forbearance thus far.
...any civil attorney following this will know that Trevor's case is made of win.
As a Knoxwegian taxpayer (and at least 'til voir dire, potential juror), I am grateful for his forbearance thus far.
Jamie C.
Member
Okay... after reading most of this thread, and having been a L.E.O. here in TN, my thoughts on this are as follows:
The officer and department need to be sued. No questions asked, no quarter given. The apology letter is nothing more than an attempt to make this all quietly go away.
The department WILL lose if such suit is brought. "Good ol' boy" politics is still very much alive and well, here in TN, but it's not what it used to be; the courts will see through this crap in an instant. ( Do a search on the TN Highway Patrol, and what's happened with them in the past couple of years to see what I'm talking about. )
Back when the laws were changed regarding TN carry permits, I was working for the local Sheriff's department at the time. I had gotten my carry permit a year or two earlier, and at that time, your weapon was listed on your permit, you were required to carry a $50,000 bond, and the gun HAD to be concealed.
The new (current ) rules went into effect about the same time as one of our annual firearms qualification. ( This was about 10 years ago, btw. ) And after said qualification, the officer in charge got us all together and informed us of the changes, and let us know that if we saw someone walking down main street with a gun on his hip, in a cowboy-type rig, that we'd better proceed with caution and care, 'cause it was now legal to do that, with a permit.
We had one officer who piped up and said "I see anybody with a gun on their hip, and no badge, I'm gonna go ask 'em what the hell they think they're doing!"
The range officer responded "No, you WILL NOT. You don't have the authority to do that, and you WILL obey department policy. End of discussion."
This officer already had a "colorful" history, and had been pulled off patrol and more or less demoted to "Jailer". The above incident showed all of us who'd had some questions about that exactly why. ( I believe the officer hadn't been outright fired instead of the demotion because of family name. ) Remember, I did say "good ol' boy politics" was alive and well.
So, I'm firmly in the "Hang the bastards out to dry" category. I've seen too much let slide that shouldn't have been, and know that it'll never change if people don't stand up and make it change.
J.C.
The officer and department need to be sued. No questions asked, no quarter given. The apology letter is nothing more than an attempt to make this all quietly go away.
The department WILL lose if such suit is brought. "Good ol' boy" politics is still very much alive and well, here in TN, but it's not what it used to be; the courts will see through this crap in an instant. ( Do a search on the TN Highway Patrol, and what's happened with them in the past couple of years to see what I'm talking about. )
Back when the laws were changed regarding TN carry permits, I was working for the local Sheriff's department at the time. I had gotten my carry permit a year or two earlier, and at that time, your weapon was listed on your permit, you were required to carry a $50,000 bond, and the gun HAD to be concealed.
The new (current ) rules went into effect about the same time as one of our annual firearms qualification. ( This was about 10 years ago, btw. ) And after said qualification, the officer in charge got us all together and informed us of the changes, and let us know that if we saw someone walking down main street with a gun on his hip, in a cowboy-type rig, that we'd better proceed with caution and care, 'cause it was now legal to do that, with a permit.
We had one officer who piped up and said "I see anybody with a gun on their hip, and no badge, I'm gonna go ask 'em what the hell they think they're doing!"
The range officer responded "No, you WILL NOT. You don't have the authority to do that, and you WILL obey department policy. End of discussion."
This officer already had a "colorful" history, and had been pulled off patrol and more or less demoted to "Jailer". The above incident showed all of us who'd had some questions about that exactly why. ( I believe the officer hadn't been outright fired instead of the demotion because of family name. ) Remember, I did say "good ol' boy politics" was alive and well.
So, I'm firmly in the "Hang the bastards out to dry" category. I've seen too much let slide that shouldn't have been, and know that it'll never change if people don't stand up and make it change.
J.C.
Deanimator
Member
There ARE police who believe in upholding the law EQUALLY for EVERYONE.
Unfortunately, sometimes it seems that they are drowned out by those who want to be above the law. It's nice to see one contradict that perception from time to time.
RoadkingLarry
Member
EDIT: Link to OT site in quote removed by mod.
Thats just pretty much disgusting.
Thats just pretty much disgusting.
Last edited by a moderator:
Autolycus
Member
Got to love the double standard.
If your post disappeared it's because you wandered OT of the Knoxville incident.
Folks, lets not wander off into conjecture about things that didn't happen or unrelated incidents. Adding to or escalating the incident or other "what if he/they" becomes open ended and moves into the theoretical instead of what was involved with this incident.
If you want to discuss the legal ramifications of a theoretical please open another thread.
If you want to discuss the legal ramifications of a theoretical please open another thread.
Fair enough.
Here's my email to KPD, with a copy to one of the Knoxville city councilmen:
To: [email protected], [email protected]
CC: Joe Hultquist <[email protected]>
Like many people across the country, I've been following the events around, to be gentle, Glen Todd Greene's unprofessional and abusive behavior, an example of which (perhaps, possibly, the only such example, although that's not the way to bet) was on display in the recent incident with which I'm sure you're more than familiar.
What is uncontroverted -- and possibly true; not having seen the squad car's video, I don't know, but you do -- is that Mr. Greene threatened a citizen with false imprisonment and invented charges, and that his punishment was only administrative -- a letter in his file that will, at most, have some negative impact on his early promotion opportunities at KPD. (Given Greene's employment history, it's likely that that will be of no importance, as he's likely to move on again.) He was not prosecuted, given unpaid time off, or even required to apologize to his victim privately, much less in a public venue. (Obviously, any sense of personal honor would have already compelled Mr. Greene to apologize for his scurrilous misbehavior.)
A few questions.
Why was this not addressed in the response to the victim? Your Internal Affairs unit referenced his rudeness and ignorance -- and certainly he was both, and more -- but ignored the far more serious offense of threatening false imprisonment and phony charges.
Why was Mr. Greene not disciplined for failing to call for backup? By his own admission, the sight of a pistol on a law-abiding citizen's belt had him in a panic (he accused the victim of creating a panic, but there was no evidence whatsoever that anybody other than Mr. Greene was panicing), but he didn't call for help? Is that possibly acceptable in the KPD?
What if anything, in your professional opinion, will this do to discourage other unprofessional, arrogant officers from engaging in similar activity in the future? Is this sort of misbehavior in KPD so common that punishing it severely would create difficulties in staffing shifts?
Beyond that, as a law enforcement professional, how much do you think Mr. Greene has discredited himself as a reliable witness in future prosecutions by his lies and deceit? What effect do you think this will have on the credibility of other members of your department?
Thanks in advance for your candid replies,
jr
Here's my email to KPD, with a copy to one of the Knoxville city councilmen:
To: [email protected], [email protected]
CC: Joe Hultquist <[email protected]>
Like many people across the country, I've been following the events around, to be gentle, Glen Todd Greene's unprofessional and abusive behavior, an example of which (perhaps, possibly, the only such example, although that's not the way to bet) was on display in the recent incident with which I'm sure you're more than familiar.
What is uncontroverted -- and possibly true; not having seen the squad car's video, I don't know, but you do -- is that Mr. Greene threatened a citizen with false imprisonment and invented charges, and that his punishment was only administrative -- a letter in his file that will, at most, have some negative impact on his early promotion opportunities at KPD. (Given Greene's employment history, it's likely that that will be of no importance, as he's likely to move on again.) He was not prosecuted, given unpaid time off, or even required to apologize to his victim privately, much less in a public venue. (Obviously, any sense of personal honor would have already compelled Mr. Greene to apologize for his scurrilous misbehavior.)
A few questions.
Why was this not addressed in the response to the victim? Your Internal Affairs unit referenced his rudeness and ignorance -- and certainly he was both, and more -- but ignored the far more serious offense of threatening false imprisonment and phony charges.
Why was Mr. Greene not disciplined for failing to call for backup? By his own admission, the sight of a pistol on a law-abiding citizen's belt had him in a panic (he accused the victim of creating a panic, but there was no evidence whatsoever that anybody other than Mr. Greene was panicing), but he didn't call for help? Is that possibly acceptable in the KPD?
What if anything, in your professional opinion, will this do to discourage other unprofessional, arrogant officers from engaging in similar activity in the future? Is this sort of misbehavior in KPD so common that punishing it severely would create difficulties in staffing shifts?
Beyond that, as a law enforcement professional, how much do you think Mr. Greene has discredited himself as a reliable witness in future prosecutions by his lies and deceit? What effect do you think this will have on the credibility of other members of your department?
Thanks in advance for your candid replies,
jr
armoredman
Member
I'd want the tapes from the security cameras.
chipperi
Member
Walmart security videos suck...no audio and 99% of the time so grainy you couldn't tell who was who.
The audio from the officer was taped to his cruiser recorder.
camslam
Member
I am not in law enforcement, nor do I have a desire to be. There are way too many interesting people to deal with in society.
That being said, law enforcement is no different than any other aspect of our society. You have good people, you have crooks, you have honest, you have dishonest. While we hold our law enforcement at a different level than other members of society, shouldn't we? These are the people that have been given the authority to enforce our laws.
That is the scary thing to me, who watches the watchers? Some events get reported, but I'm sure like many things in our society, many just get swept under the rug.
Thankfully I have had very limited experience being questioned by law enforcement, but if this would have happened to me, I would do what I could to make an example of this officer. I hate lawyers, I hate law suits, but unless the guy was fired outright for his conduct, I would sue him. The circumstances regarding the officers conduct, are what would lead to a law suit or request that he be fired. As I mentioned before, you can't have those that are charged with enforcing the laws, breaking them. It just doesn't work.
I'm sure it is no different with anyone else on this forum, the job you have dictates much of what you can and cannot do and say while performing that job. There are many times I would like to say or do something while I am working, but because of my profession and job, I can't do it. It is no different with law enforcement, there are things you can and just can't do.
That being said, law enforcement is no different than any other aspect of our society. You have good people, you have crooks, you have honest, you have dishonest. While we hold our law enforcement at a different level than other members of society, shouldn't we? These are the people that have been given the authority to enforce our laws.
That is the scary thing to me, who watches the watchers? Some events get reported, but I'm sure like many things in our society, many just get swept under the rug.
Thankfully I have had very limited experience being questioned by law enforcement, but if this would have happened to me, I would do what I could to make an example of this officer. I hate lawyers, I hate law suits, but unless the guy was fired outright for his conduct, I would sue him. The circumstances regarding the officers conduct, are what would lead to a law suit or request that he be fired. As I mentioned before, you can't have those that are charged with enforcing the laws, breaking them. It just doesn't work.
I'm sure it is no different with anyone else on this forum, the job you have dictates much of what you can and cannot do and say while performing that job. There are many times I would like to say or do something while I am working, but because of my profession and job, I can't do it. It is no different with law enforcement, there are things you can and just can't do.
I know many see this incident and say "i'd sue the city" because "that's the only thing they understand." But really, if you won no money, would you sue? I would think that filing criminal charges against the offending officer would be the more target-appropriate approach.
El Tejon
Member
There are other remedies other than a simple monetary award: Public Service Announcements supporting the RKBA, use of police ranges by gun owners, construction of public ranges and youth programs with the bill footed by money from police training fund, federal court monitoring of the Knoxville Police and their hostility toward RKBA, a combination of several, among many other remedies that have been used in other civil rights cases.
Hypnogator
Member
Would seem like less of a stretch than routinely carrying a firearm where permitted would constitute "Disturbing the Peace."
I was a Federal law enforcement officer for more than 20 years. If one of my agents had acted like this officer did, he wouldn't have had his badge and credentials long enough to get a good look at them.
Daryll in NW FLA
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Well it just saddens me that any police officer would abuse his position in such a manner. Daryll in NW FLA
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