Police Begin Fingerprinting on Traffic Stops
- Thread starter Tall Man
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Intune
Member
Now Dawg, you know other folks can't do what Texans do. It's why I married a girl from Abilene. Leave it at that you rascals.
benewton
Member
Lawdog:
Seems I've read some of your stuff: liked it at the time, laughed and enjoyed.
But we all have our own tales, some easily translated, some not, and, while you've a tough job, so do we all.
No doubt you could to an even better "job" with a firearms database, and it'd even be more effective with a DNA data base added. Throw in a national ID card, and, no doubt, there'd be no crime at all!
This country can't work that way.
Seems I've read some of your stuff: liked it at the time, laughed and enjoyed.
But we all have our own tales, some easily translated, some not, and, while you've a tough job, so do we all.
No doubt you could to an even better "job" with a firearms database, and it'd even be more effective with a DNA data base added. Throw in a national ID card, and, no doubt, there'd be no crime at all!
This country can't work that way.
Gregory J. Mayfield
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Slippery Slopes
Lets just finish it all with a requirement that we all have to get that little electronic chip implanted and all that they have to do is note the electronic signature as you drive past then when you don't do as THEYsay all that they have to do is press their little button and we each self distruct, right on cue.
Lets just finish it all with a requirement that we all have to get that little electronic chip implanted and all that they have to do is note the electronic signature as you drive past then when you don't do as THEYsay all that they have to do is press their little button and we each self distruct, right on cue.
Zundfolge
Member
At the risk of speaking for LawDog, I don't think he's saying this fingerprint thing will make it easier to catch the badguys, but make it harder to accidentaly lock up a goodguy.
twoblink
Member
Do they just say "Vhere ar your papers.." or do we have to pay extra for the goosestep and nazi salute?
Hey, don't shoot the messenger, I'm just asking!! 
Hey, don't shoot the messenger, I'm just asking!!
Even if they don't "use" the fingerprint on the ticket now, it will be there for future abuse. I would even bet that the Patriot Act would allow its use right now(without warrant).
As for fingerprints on checks, I won't play that game. I write 1 check a month for my electric bill (They are a pain for electronic payment).
Checks are on there way out in this society. They really aren't A form of payment. They are a promise to pay. A good % of restraunt's around town (Minneapolis) do not accept checks anymore (I sure wouldn't).
Cash makes it a lot harder to commit fraud (except counterfeiting) Which is a lot harder than forging checks.
As for fingerprints on checks, I won't play that game. I write 1 check a month for my electric bill (They are a pain for electronic payment).
Checks are on there way out in this society. They really aren't A form of payment. They are a promise to pay. A good % of restraunt's around town (Minneapolis) do not accept checks anymore (I sure wouldn't).
Cash makes it a lot harder to commit fraud (except counterfeiting) Which is a lot harder than forging checks.
Intune
Member
GJM, maybe just a little shock for minor infractions. They save the exploding heart for serious stuff like shoplifting. 
Welcome aboard THR.
Welcome aboard THR.
Gregory J. Mayfield
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Intune, thanx. It is a gas. I live in West TN.
Ryan in the House
Member
I wasn't aware that the Patriot Act even mentioned the use of fingerprinting in domestic cases...
Monkeyleg
Member.
LawDog, thanks for the reply. I'm glad that you're concerned about what happens down the line to John Upstanding Citizen, his bankbook, and his wife.
I also believe strongly in the presumption of innocence. That said, I've caved in more than once in my life to pressure from police officers to keep myself out of jail when I and, I suspect, they knew I was innocent.
That said, we're discussing Green Bay, WI here. Not a small town by any means, but apparently one with only five cases last year involving stolen identity during traffic stops. Not passing bad checks at Sassy's--a completely different issue, and one in which the owners absolutley have the right to ask for prints on checks as part of their private property rights.
We're talking about a local government dancing on the edge of violating Fourth Amendment rights, or at least doing so by an implicit threat of further police or prosecutorial action.
In trying to muddle through the pro's and con's, I guess I come up with just one question: how did we get through over two centuries of law enforcement balanced with our guaranteed freedoms without having to resort to these tactics?
It certainly must have been much easier, say, 100 years ago to create a phoney identity than it is now. After all, there were no bar codes, magnetic strips, or holograms available as they are now.
This will be a fascinating thread to follow.
I also believe strongly in the presumption of innocence. That said, I've caved in more than once in my life to pressure from police officers to keep myself out of jail when I and, I suspect, they knew I was innocent.
That said, we're discussing Green Bay, WI here. Not a small town by any means, but apparently one with only five cases last year involving stolen identity during traffic stops. Not passing bad checks at Sassy's--a completely different issue, and one in which the owners absolutley have the right to ask for prints on checks as part of their private property rights.
We're talking about a local government dancing on the edge of violating Fourth Amendment rights, or at least doing so by an implicit threat of further police or prosecutorial action.
In trying to muddle through the pro's and con's, I guess I come up with just one question: how did we get through over two centuries of law enforcement balanced with our guaranteed freedoms without having to resort to these tactics?
It certainly must have been much easier, say, 100 years ago to create a phoney identity than it is now. After all, there were no bar codes, magnetic strips, or holograms available as they are now.
This will be a fascinating thread to follow.
I would never hire this guy as a defense attorney.
Citizens do have the right to say no. "They could say no and not have to worry about getting arrested," defense attorney Jackson Main said. "On the other hand, I'm like everybody else. When a police officer tells me to do something, I'm going to do it whether I have the right to say no or not."
Lawdog,
Can't you tell that Joe Critter doesn't look like Bob Citizen on the DL?
IF you can't, does the insurance and registration match?
Why would a fingerprint be needed until those were done?
If Joe Speeder can't give you anything, isn't he in for a little more questioning and verification?
As for no repercussions for refusing, it'll probably be like most other times that people state that they are exercising their rights - flags go up and more questions, harassment etc.
Citizens do have the right to say no. "They could say no and not have to worry about getting arrested," defense attorney Jackson Main said. "On the other hand, I'm like everybody else. When a police officer tells me to do something, I'm going to do it whether I have the right to say no or not."
Lawdog,
Can't you tell that Joe Critter doesn't look like Bob Citizen on the DL?
IF you can't, does the insurance and registration match?
Why would a fingerprint be needed until those were done?
If Joe Speeder can't give you anything, isn't he in for a little more questioning and verification?
As for no repercussions for refusing, it'll probably be like most other times that people state that they are exercising their rights - flags go up and more questions, harassment etc.
You can either
Give your fingerprint here or i9 could take you back to the station and we can do it there. Of course your car will be towed. We would be liable for anything happening to it. And since it is being towed. We get to do a inventory on it. Plan on sitting for awhile in a urine stained foul smelling holding area, While the booking people mill about doing nothing except look at you and laugh. We are not going to give you a ride back to your car. And your stuck for the towing charge. Also since you will be riding in the back of the aquad car i need to cuff you. Its regulations you know. Dont worry if it seems to tight. I will loosen them up some time later. Or You can just put your fingerprint here now. Its voluntary you know.
Give your fingerprint here or i9 could take you back to the station and we can do it there. Of course your car will be towed. We would be liable for anything happening to it. And since it is being towed. We get to do a inventory on it. Plan on sitting for awhile in a urine stained foul smelling holding area, While the booking people mill about doing nothing except look at you and laugh. We are not going to give you a ride back to your car. And your stuck for the towing charge. Also since you will be riding in the back of the aquad car i need to cuff you. Its regulations you know. Dont worry if it seems to tight. I will loosen them up some time later. Or You can just put your fingerprint here now. Its voluntary you know.
Short answer? We accepted the fact that innocent people were going to wind up in jail, and society chalked it up as part of the price. 'Collateral damage' in law enforcement, if you will.
In addition, in the past that you allude to, the only part of identity theft that was a business was the taking of names from death certificates for new identities, and the dead didn't wind up in jail from it.
*sigh* You ought to see the pile of bad DL's my department has got. You know what happens? People don't shred bank statements or medical bills. Somebody goes through the dump and comes up with your bank statement, or one of your medical bills. He takes your bank statement down to the flea market, and your information is used to make a fake ID with Joe's picture.
Medical bills are the worst. And military LES's. They usually have your Social Security number on it somewhere. Many states use the SSN as the DL number. The critter has your address, he has your DL (SSN) number, all tied to his picture on the card.
I get the card, I run it. Since the number is your DL number, the information comes back good - but it has his picture on it.
DL information matches what's on record, picture matches the guy who handed it to me...but it ain't you.
LawDog
Lawdog, your argument is reasonable for a mandatory print-taking policy, but the fact remains that the program in Green Bay is voluntary. Isn't it, then, worse than useless? As has been pointed out, criminals aren't going to voluntarily give their prints, particularly if they're wanted, and innocent citizens will often feel obligated to provide prints, law or not.
I was not aware that Texas does not run crime scene prints against the DL database. I'm amazed and thrilled that they respect my right to privacy, though I'm not sure why they need my fingerprint for a drivers' license. They don't even take my prints when I buy a gun. Comparatively, what's the big deal about being able to drive a car?
I was not aware that Texas does not run crime scene prints against the DL database. I'm amazed and thrilled that they respect my right to privacy, though I'm not sure why they need my fingerprint for a drivers' license. They don't even take my prints when I buy a gun. Comparatively, what's the big deal about being able to drive a car?
Gordon Fink
Member
Seems like we took a crack at that problem back in 1791, but not too many people paid attention.
~G. Fink
ZeroX
Member
That frustrates me more than some optional fingerprinting program.
Monkeyleg
Member.
This shouldn't really be a big personal concern of mine, since I have prints on file from getting my Form 4 for a subgun, from getting my FL non-resident permit, and from--ahem--a youthful indiscretion.
LawDog, I can think of any number of reasons why fingerprinting at traffic stops should not be allowed, on grounds of principle.
On grounds of practicality, I'm finding it near impossible to argue your points.
Give me another couple of nights lying awake at night. Maybe I'll think of something.
LawDog, I can think of any number of reasons why fingerprinting at traffic stops should not be allowed, on grounds of principle.
On grounds of practicality, I'm finding it near impossible to argue your points.
Give me another couple of nights lying awake at night. Maybe I'll think of something.
And when some critter has used your ID to get out of a ticket, or avoid a warrant, it becomes very difficult to firmly establish innocence.
Plus, and this twists my knickers into the biggest knot you'll ever come across, people who have been arrested on traffic warrants will often plea nolo contendre even if they're innocent, just to get it over with.
That'll give you a aneurysm, I'm here to tell you.
[gloom]Yeah. Me, too.[/gloom]
And, you know the sickening thing about it? Should the local PD decide to take up this practice, I'll go raise hell at every city council meeting I can get to.
And then, I'll feel even more guilty every time I book in an innocent person because some bottom-feeder got their ID info and is using it to avoid arrest.
Some times you just can't win.
LawDog
True Story.
I pull over a guy, a very distinguished looking older gentleman, and his wife. They did a U-turn in a no U-turn intersection. I plan on just issuing them a warning, assuming that the DL and vehicle info comes back as ok.
He comes back with a possible warrant for his arrest, pending verification by issuing agency. Sigh.
OK. At this point I immediately signal for another car on non-emergency backup, and delve a little deeper into the computer warrant info...and I start going "Huuuuuh." The warrant is out of Someother City for failure to appear out of traffic charges. Now, granted...this guy just did pull a minor boneheaded manuever by doing a U-ey in front of a cop at an intersection marked NO U TURNS, but he really didn't seem the sort to have the laundry list of traffic charges listed on this warrant.
The verification yields an interesting tidbit. The warrant is good, but this guy also has an identity theft warning attached to his DL. So, now...I put two and two together, have another chat with him, and decide that not only is he probably not the guy who actually got the traffic warrants, I certainly don't think that I have the necessary PC to arrest him on them. He goes off, with his warning and a thank you, and armed with the advice to call the Clerk of Courts in Someother City rightfreakingnow to figure out whats up with "his" warrants.
Here is what most likley happened. Joe Scumbag somehow gets this guy's personal 411. Joe Scumbag then gets pulled over for violating most of the Ohio Revised Code's traffic section. Joe Scumbag says "Sir, I don't have my license, but I can give you my SSN. I have an Ohio license. My name is Bob Innocent, and I live at 1234 Sum St. in Someother City, OH, and my birthday is 9/8/76."
Well, ok. What is that SSN? 123-45-6789? Ok, this will just take a minute.
Our Gendarme returns to his cruiser to verify this information. Well, Lo! and behold. Joe Scumbag has given the SSN of Bob Innocent. Bob Innocent and Joe Scumbag are somewhat physically similar. 5'10"ish, 165 lbs? Well...he mighta put on a few...both are 28 years old...brown hair, green eyes. The car doesn't match up, though...
Sir, whose car are you driving? Oh, it's your buddy, Joe Scumbag's? OK. Well, sign this ticket here...signing means that you promise to show up in court, or pay these charges. Thank you, and drive safely.
So, now...of course Joe Scumbag doesn't go to Bob Innocent's court appearance. Neither does Bob Innocent, of course, be cause he knows nothing about it. So...when no one shows up, guess what? Warrant for arrest, failure to appear.
Bob Innocent is now a wanted man.
This is how an innocent man can end up with a warrant for his arrest. He might not end up with, as you say, a criminal record (I'll let Lawdog explain for sure, but I imagine he was just being less than clear in his terminology), but he certainly will end up with arrest warrants.
So? Whose screw up was this? The cop who issued the tickets in the first place? No, not really. Imagine the keening wail of the civil libertarians if you actually just arrested someone for not having their DL on them, at a traffic stop. Or if we just arrested people out of traffic stops as a matter of routine. Or, if we "hassled" someone over driving a car that was not registered to them.
The answer is, it was nobody's screw up. But, an innocent man very nearly went to jail for one night in my city, got a free ride in a Prisoner Transport to Someother City the next day, and would then stand before a judge and have an opportunity to post bond.
That is unacceptable to me, and it ought to be to anyone else out here, too. If he had not noted that he had already seen some pretty odd things in the mail (account statements from accounts he didn't have, etc) and contacted some government agency somewhere, he probably would have had that happen.
So, now we're playing civil liberties off against one another. Should the police fingerprint you as a matter of routine if you get stopped in your car? No? Well, should they take you to jail if you forget your DL? No? Should they just stop enforcing traffic laws altogether? No? Should they just accept that they will sometimes give innocent people a ride to jail and be happy with it? No?
I have news for you...one of those questions must logically be a yes. Its up to the American people to decide which one. But pretending that it doesn't have to be one of the above is ignoring the issue. Honoring liberty in one instance creates the opportunity for jamming up a Good Guy in another.
Mike
Moondoggie
Member
Gotta tell 'ya, I can really see both sides of this issue.
During my 2 yrs of reserve cop service, I dealt with fake ID's more than you'd think for a town of 15K in SD, until you consider that we were on I-90 and got a lot of traffic to and from Sturgis for bike week.
I've been a victim of "identity theft". In 76 I went TAD in the Marines for 3 months from CA to VA. My wife went with me. While I was gone, a neighbor helped himself to my license plate..we both had blue VW's. He parked wherever he wanted with my tag on his car. Right after I got back from TAD I PCS'd to Seattle and started getting notices of failing to pay the tickets. Phone calls to CA got me the most assinine bureaucrat imagineable..."don't care if you can prove you were somewhere else...it's your plate and you're responsible." Plus fees up the wazoo for failure to appear, etc. I let the bench warrants ride for 7 yrs and made sure I stayed out of CA. It never came up on any of my background investigations for security clearances.
The fingerprint thing alongside the road is nothing compared to having the genderme's put the gleeps on me and cart me off to the pokey...prolly not at a real convenient time. Knowing that I hadn't done anything to be arrested for combined with my temperment might also lead to some level of resisting, especially depending on the attitude of the officer involved. As one of my favorite commanding officers used to say "And then where would we be?" Even if the cop was "Uncle Dudley" and talked me into going with the flow, it's a whole lot more stress than putting my fingerprint on a ticket for a minor traffic infraction.
DOD has my DNA and fingerprints on file, so the boat's already sailed on the privacy deal between me and big brother. I'm all for the libertarian/rugged individualist thing, but I can also see the purpose of definitive proof of identity. This is something I'd be willing to tolerate, but I'd like for the officer to 'splain it to me nicely.
During my 2 yrs of reserve cop service, I dealt with fake ID's more than you'd think for a town of 15K in SD, until you consider that we were on I-90 and got a lot of traffic to and from Sturgis for bike week.
I've been a victim of "identity theft". In 76 I went TAD in the Marines for 3 months from CA to VA. My wife went with me. While I was gone, a neighbor helped himself to my license plate..we both had blue VW's. He parked wherever he wanted with my tag on his car. Right after I got back from TAD I PCS'd to Seattle and started getting notices of failing to pay the tickets. Phone calls to CA got me the most assinine bureaucrat imagineable..."don't care if you can prove you were somewhere else...it's your plate and you're responsible." Plus fees up the wazoo for failure to appear, etc. I let the bench warrants ride for 7 yrs and made sure I stayed out of CA. It never came up on any of my background investigations for security clearances.
The fingerprint thing alongside the road is nothing compared to having the genderme's put the gleeps on me and cart me off to the pokey...prolly not at a real convenient time. Knowing that I hadn't done anything to be arrested for combined with my temperment might also lead to some level of resisting, especially depending on the attitude of the officer involved. As one of my favorite commanding officers used to say "And then where would we be?" Even if the cop was "Uncle Dudley" and talked me into going with the flow, it's a whole lot more stress than putting my fingerprint on a ticket for a minor traffic infraction.
DOD has my DNA and fingerprints on file, so the boat's already sailed on the privacy deal between me and big brother. I'm all for the libertarian/rugged individualist thing, but I can also see the purpose of definitive proof of identity. This is something I'd be willing to tolerate, but I'd like for the officer to 'splain it to me nicely.
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