Police harassment over open carry in VT

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In Texas, you park your car in front of someone in a mall parking lot with the intention of preventing them driving away - even for 5 minutes - and any TX PO can arrest you for false imprisonment. Even though the person is "free to walk away without the car" etc.

There is a reasonable period in which any PO can justify checking your identity, and making sufficient observations etc in order to deterimine whether or not there is any evidence that someone is engaged in a crime. An hour is a long time; too long if the sole basis of the detention is a legally carried firearm.

If any PO is dumb enough to try and trump up charges of "causing an affray" or breach of the peace based on a leglly carried firearm as in VT with no other elements - and a DA is dumb enough to carrying it to a court, I'd say that is firm grounds for charges of malicious prosecution as well.

If the state DA won't help you with criminal charges, the same can be followed through as a civil case whether the state DA likes it or not.

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Next time try to have a friend along as a witness to this harassment. Then follow thru on the lawsuit. Some cops just don't get it. And tell him that you might just sue him personally if the laws in your state allow it. Power crazed, that's all.
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They almost certainly do.

If he knows or should know that what he's doing is illegal, against SOP, etc., he's probably pierced his qualified immunity.

Take all of his stuff and donate it to GOA! Maybe take his boat/car down to Knob Creek and sell tickets to shoot them. :)
 
LAK said:
There is a reasonable period in which any PO can justify checking your identity, and making sufficient observations etc in order to deterimine whether or not there is any evidence that someone is engaged in a crime. An hour is a long time; too long if the sole basis of the detention is a legally carried firearm.
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You have to decide if it's worth making an issue of, but according to the Supreme Court's ruling regarding Terry stops, a police officer cannot demand that you identify yourself unless the stop meets the Terry criteria -- which means that he has to have a reasonable suspicion based on clearly articulable facts that a crime has been committed, is being committed, or is about to be committed. If you decline to identify yourself and he can't articulate what crime he is investigating, you can (legally) walk away.

Since Vermont does not require a license or permit for open or concealed carry, obviously the mere fact that someone is wearing a handgun can never be shown to justify a reasonable suspicion based on clearly articulable facts that there's a crime. What would the crime be? "Suspicion of engaging in lawful behavior"?
 
Aguila Blanca said:
You have to decide if it's worth making an issue of, but according to the Supreme Court's ruling regarding Terry stops, a police officer cannot demand that you identify yourself unless the stop meets the Terry criteria -- which means that he has to have a reasonable suspicion based on clearly articulable facts that a crime has been committed, is being committed, or is about to be committed. If you decline to identify yourself and he can't articulate what crime he is investigating, you can (legally) walk away.

Since Vermont does not require a license or permit for open or concealed carry, obviously the mere fact that someone is wearing a handgun can never be shown to justify a reasonable suspicion based on clearly articulable facts that there's a crime. What would the crime be? "Suspicion of engaging in lawful behavior"?
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Brilliant
 
Keep us posted. This is a very interesting post, and certainly everyone can learn from it.

I also second the voice recorder. A little digital recorder would prove invaluable. I would also suggest writing down badge numbers. Get as much information as you can.
 
Make sure it's legal for you to record a conversation w/o the other party's knowledge in VT. Otherwise you might get in trouble with federal "wire tapping" laws. Some states only require that one party know about the recording, other's require both. I think. Look it up to be safe.
 
Just a thought...

Next time he walks up to you and asks for your gun, why not just ignore him and walk away? He only has the authority you allow him to have.

He knows you're doing nothing illegal. You know you're doing nothing illegal. How could he possibly respond?

Am i being naive here? To me it seems like nothing more than a newly minted cop with an attitude against gun owners.
 
Next time he walks up to you and asks for your gun, why not just ignore him and walk away? He only has the authority you allow him to have.
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No, he has the authority the government gave him (or her). From someone who has been there a few times, I recommend you do as ordered and fight the fight later. You don’t want him drawing on you. That’s why I strongly suggest asking if you are being detained; it’s best to get that on the table in case he actually does have a reason to legally detain you. For example, if the dispatcher reported that you were pulling your gun out. If he says he is not detaining you, walk away. Don’t argue, don’t debate; just walk (or go back to whatever you were already doing).
 
Make sure it's legal for you to record a conversation w/o the other party's knowledge in VT. Otherwise you might get in trouble with federal "wire tapping" laws. Some states only require that one party know about the recording, other's require both. I think. Look it up to be safe.
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This is easy next time he gets stopped the first thing out of his mouth should be. For your safety and mine this entire event will be recorded. end of discussion isnt it.

Also Antique collector you need to post some pics of your collection. i would love to see. any black powders in you collection
 
Make sure it's legal for you to record a conversation w/o the other party's knowledge in VT. Otherwise you might get in trouble with federal "wire tapping" laws. Some states only require that one party know about the recording, other's require both. I think. Look it up to be safe.
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I can't say for certain about Vermont law, but SCOTUS rulings in the past have upheld that it is legal for a government agency to record a conversation as long as one party consents.

Furthermore, under the idea of what constitutes a 4th Amendment search, since the officer and the individual are in a public area they are "knowingly expos[ing]" the conversation to the public, and as such are unlikely to have any kind of reasonable expectation of privacy.

A cursory search turned up this site. Might have some useful information about taping conversations.
 
I can't say for certain about Vermont law, but SCOTUS rulings in the past have upheld that it is legal for a government agency to record a conversation as long as one party consents.
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Emphasis added. (I know it shouldn't make any difference, but should and could are sometimes different)
 
Get a recorder!

Next time I come back to VT/NH, I think I will have to take a drive to Rutland and do an OC walk. Maybe we should do an OC lunch/dinner.
 
You don’t want him drawing on you. That’s why I strongly suggest asking if you are being detained;
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1. "Am I free to leave?"

2. (If "no") "Am I being detained? Am I being arrested?"

3. (If "no") "Have a nice day officer." (Walk away.)

4. (If "yes") "On suspicion of what crime am I being detained?/ For what am I being arrested?"

5. If you're told you're being detained/arrested, and or being verbally or physically abused, "Please get a field supervisor now." You want witnesses, especially witnesses who have to keep their stories straight and have something to lose.

Make the system work for you and against itself.
 
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