vis-à-vis
Member
My point was to post the story and see what ensues in discourse. My question at the end of the quoted article was my own reaction to the article. Please let the discourse continue.
More Open Carry LEO Harassment in VA
- Thread starter vis-à-vis
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My point was to post the story and see what ensues in discourse. My question at the end of the quoted article was my own reaction to the article. Please let the discourse continue.
DontBurnMyFlag
Member
I certainly hope no one OC'ing in VA simply walks away or ignores a police officer as they approach you.
If an officer approaches you for whatever reason, he doesnt know if you are a felon with a gun, or a 2a supporting American.
I know if I walked up on someone and started a street interview, I would want them to at least acknowledge my presence. This is the first indication that they have nothing to hide. The baddies are always the ones that avoid eye contact, walk the other way and try to evade me non-chalantly.
A good way to get hurt is to be disrespectful and walk away. The officer may think you are a tweaker or an EDP.
Just my 2 one hundredths of a dollar.
If an officer approaches you for whatever reason, he doesnt know if you are a felon with a gun, or a 2a supporting American.
I know if I walked up on someone and started a street interview, I would want them to at least acknowledge my presence. This is the first indication that they have nothing to hide. The baddies are always the ones that avoid eye contact, walk the other way and try to evade me non-chalantly.
A good way to get hurt is to be disrespectful and walk away. The officer may think you are a tweaker or an EDP.
Just my 2 one hundredths of a dollar.
wheelgunslinger
Member
It's a touchy situation for sure.
You want to let the officers know that you are a friendly, but don't want to surrender any rights as they interview you.
And, as we all (including LEOs reading this) know, if you don't know your rights, they'll sure as heck get trampled without a second thought since they don't have to watch out for your rights.
I'd say that Virginia's morning meetings at the station are probably all abuzz with remedial open carry law seminars for patrol officers.
You want to let the officers know that you are a friendly, but don't want to surrender any rights as they interview you.
And, as we all (including LEOs reading this) know, if you don't know your rights, they'll sure as heck get trampled without a second thought since they don't have to watch out for your rights.
I'd say that Virginia's morning meetings at the station are probably all abuzz with remedial open carry law seminars for patrol officers.
Spartacus451
Member
No. He doesn't. In this country you cannot be detained without pretext and the courts have ruled repeatedly in several states including VA that open carry does not constitute the reasonable suspicion necessary to detain and search someone.
ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
Knowing The Law
It would seem prudent to not only know the law, but also to carry it with you at all times when carrying.
If one of the parameters of Law Enforcement is that the officers enforcing the laws are, themselves, unsure or untrained or uninformed, and if you're trying to make a point in public, and if that "point" your making is pretty much guaranteed to light up the switchboard down at Central, then you would be well advised to have 1) a clear understanding of the actual pertinent laws, 2) a copy of said laws on your person, 3) the name and number of an attorney ready and willing to enthusiastically support your position.
Yes, the normal expectation is that officers of the law will actually know the law, but it doesn't seem that such is reliably the case.
Therefore, take extra precautions.
As inroads are made in this domain, your most serious problems won't come from the bad guys, but from ignorant and frightened people calling out the the constabulary, who themselves may well be uninitiated.
Belt and suspenders.
It would seem prudent to not only know the law, but also to carry it with you at all times when carrying.
If one of the parameters of Law Enforcement is that the officers enforcing the laws are, themselves, unsure or untrained or uninformed, and if you're trying to make a point in public, and if that "point" your making is pretty much guaranteed to light up the switchboard down at Central, then you would be well advised to have 1) a clear understanding of the actual pertinent laws, 2) a copy of said laws on your person, 3) the name and number of an attorney ready and willing to enthusiastically support your position.
Yes, the normal expectation is that officers of the law will actually know the law, but it doesn't seem that such is reliably the case.
Therefore, take extra precautions.
As inroads are made in this domain, your most serious problems won't come from the bad guys, but from ignorant and frightened people calling out the the constabulary, who themselves may well be uninitiated.
Belt and suspenders.
cassandrasdaddy
Member
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No. He doesn't. In this country you cannot be detained without pretext and the courts have ruled repeatedly in several states including VA that open carry does not constitute the reasonable suspicion necessary to detain and search someone.
could you provide a link to those rulings? or a clue so i could find em? they might come in handy
could you provide a link to those rulings? or a clue so i could find em? they might come in handy
wheelgunslinger
Member
Very good thinking Arfin.
If someone could put that legal info on a business card, Virginians could carry it with them.
If someone could put that legal info on a business card, Virginians could carry it with them.
W.E.G.
Member
Somebody used the word "pretext."
While that word has much relevance in the law of search and seizure, it is the wrong word to use in this exact context.
Its "reasonable suspicion" for a government agent to stop someone.
Its "probable cause" for a government agent to arrest someone.
That is, if either acts are done in a legal manner.
Remember, it doesn't take much to constitute "reasonable suspicion." Merely being armed is probably enough for most judges - even if that may come up a bit short under close constitutional legal analysis.
Like I said. Not everybody has the stomach for it.
While that word has much relevance in the law of search and seizure, it is the wrong word to use in this exact context.
Its "reasonable suspicion" for a government agent to stop someone.
Its "probable cause" for a government agent to arrest someone.
That is, if either acts are done in a legal manner.
Remember, it doesn't take much to constitute "reasonable suspicion." Merely being armed is probably enough for most judges - even if that may come up a bit short under close constitutional legal analysis.
Like I said. Not everybody has the stomach for it.
Deanimator
Member
And I'll bet being able to say that you offered the officer(s) in question a copy of the law could really come in handy in court later, criminal or civil!
Spartacus451
Member
It's a result of a patchwork of Federal and State laws. If open carry is legal in a specific state then it certainly does not constitute reasonable suspicion for a terry stop. It is well established that it is legal in VA because there is no law on the books that prohibits it (only concealed carry is prohibited without a license), and thus it is impossible to charge someone with violating the law.
See:
http://vaguninfo.com/pages/opencarry.htm
http://www.vcdl.org/new/VASP_OPEN.pdf
And this link has citations to the issues surrounding Terry stops themselves:
http://policechiefmagazine.org/maga...n=display_arch&article_id=757&issue_id=122005
The bottom line is that we do not live in a country where you can be stopped because an officer doesn't like what you are doing. He has to have a reason. That doesn't change what the accepted practice is, and for all practical intents and purposes there is nothing you can do to stop them.
Their goal is to harass and deter, not to convict you of an actual crime. If they detain you and search you without pretext that will blow away any chance they have of convicting you, but that doesn't really matter because you have already lost. After the fact people will pretend you have recourse but the reality is otherwise.
W.E.G., I didn't know pretext had such a loaded meaning. I was using it as a non-legalese synonym before introducing the phrase "reasonable suspicion."
Speaking of reasonable suspicion and probable cause...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_suspicion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause
cassandrasdaddy
Member
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thanks
for the links i wish the law would be more clear to eliminate the nonesense
for the links i wish the law would be more clear to eliminate the nonesense
ZeSpectre
Member
I've made a couple of relevant .PDF files that I print, laminate, and carry in the glovebox of my car. I have a busy schedule tonight when I get home but if I remember I'll try to post links, or at least the text, here for others to use.
Though I can post this little beauty (Title 42) right now.
HonorsDaddy
Member
DontBurnMyFlag
Up until the point where he identifies himself to me and issues a lawful request to stop, I'm going to do whatever I had planned to do anyway - which very likely involves ignoring him. (no, i don't live in the Commonwealth, but family does)
W.E.G.
Member
You can carry copies of statutes around with you if you like.
Maybe one-in-a-hundred cops will even consent to looking at the "papers you were waving around."
And one-in-a-hundred of those cops will ever do anything different than what they already intended to do after reading those "papers you were waving around."
I don't say that to discourage people from knowing the law, and maintaining useful reference materials. Indeed, any armed citizen MUST know the law relating to firearm-possession. But, printed statutory/caselaw legal matter is usually nothing more than an added irritant to the officer in any man-with-a-gun call I've ever heard of.
Case-in-point is the recent incident in Manassas VA where a gang of uniform officers bullied a group of decent citizens out of a restaurant.
See http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7883366184275470141&hl=en
Maybe one-in-a-hundred cops will even consent to looking at the "papers you were waving around."
And one-in-a-hundred of those cops will ever do anything different than what they already intended to do after reading those "papers you were waving around."
I don't say that to discourage people from knowing the law, and maintaining useful reference materials. Indeed, any armed citizen MUST know the law relating to firearm-possession. But, printed statutory/caselaw legal matter is usually nothing more than an added irritant to the officer in any man-with-a-gun call I've ever heard of.
Case-in-point is the recent incident in Manassas VA where a gang of uniform officers bullied a group of decent citizens out of a restaurant.
See http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7883366184275470141&hl=en
Well, a good indicator would be that the bad guys almost never use holsters, and if they are carrying openly it's already in their fist and aimed at the head of some clerk.
I'll continue to OC, thanks. As we have gained more exposure in the NoVA community, the word has indeed gotten out to the LE ranks that it's perfectly legal. Incidents like this have become rarer but get a lot of attention because we have built such a communication network. Activism at it's finest.
DKSuddeth
Member
so if i'm in a hurry and don't have time to talk to you, what are you going to do to me? legally that is.
TallPine
Member
Well, in many states there is no such law - it is simply not illegal.
Blackfork
Member
Educational
Looks to me like the primary benefit of open carry is education of the Police and the public at large. Both admirable goals. My compliments to the folks who are making the sacrifices to get this done.
Hope we get OC in Texas. I know it's on the TSRA list.
Looks to me like the primary benefit of open carry is education of the Police and the public at large. Both admirable goals. My compliments to the folks who are making the sacrifices to get this done.
Hope we get OC in Texas. I know it's on the TSRA list.
wheelgunslinger
Member
Same here. I'm going to start open carrying again. Most of the time when I carried a 45 Vaquero LEOs didn't even care because I was carrying a "cowboy gun."
These days, it may be different.
Something you may wish to try in cases like these
Planning ahead such as carrying preprinted copies of the law is a good idea. I'm thinking that another idea already used successfully elsewhere is a buddy with a video camera. That tends to throw off LEOs and puts them on their best manners. Asking the officer who stops you if he has a business card or using his badge number or name tag would have the same effect. Personally I always tell LEOs that I get yelled at by my lawyer if I talk to them with out him present.
I think one of the most useful thing to do is file a letter of complaint against every officer you can identify. I think that would get around at the speed of light. The last thing any officer wants is a letter of complaint in his jacket. I'll bet that would work wonders!
Planning ahead such as carrying preprinted copies of the law is a good idea. I'm thinking that another idea already used successfully elsewhere is a buddy with a video camera. That tends to throw off LEOs and puts them on their best manners. Asking the officer who stops you if he has a business card or using his badge number or name tag would have the same effect. Personally I always tell LEOs that I get yelled at by my lawyer if I talk to them with out him present.
I think one of the most useful thing to do is file a letter of complaint against every officer you can identify. I think that would get around at the speed of light. The last thing any officer wants is a letter of complaint in his jacket. I'll bet that would work wonders!chris in va
Member
After OC'ing a few times and having comments made, I'd have to say a laminated card would work better for the average Joe(Ann) that gets all flustered over the Sig on my belt than Mr. LEO responding to a call.
You know, it's frustrating. Sometimes I feel almost...ashamed...like everyone is gawking at me. Just today I went to get some parts for my car and felt eyes burning into me, wondering if I was going to hold up the place. And I'm not even in NOVA proper, out near the border of WV actually.
You know, it's frustrating. Sometimes I feel almost...ashamed...like everyone is gawking at me. Just today I went to get some parts for my car and felt eyes burning into me, wondering if I was going to hold up the place. And I'm not even in NOVA proper, out near the border of WV actually.
lacoochee
Member
Sounds more like your self conscience than anything else. I would bet you, that most people just assume your are a LEO and are just looking for curiosities sake. I know I always look to see what they are carrying, how, etc..
Keep it up, in a few years, people will ask you where your gun is when you walk into a store and why you left it at home.
Keep it up, in a few years, people will ask you where your gun is when you walk into a store and why you left it at home.
ForeignDude
Member
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2006
- Messages
- 133
Just A Thought...
Someone made the point that carrying a piece of paper with the relevant laws would be a waste of time -- it will merely irritate the LEO. This is a valid point, methinks.
A better suggestion is not only to carry the statutes with you, but also to memorize the citations of selected statutes relating to open carry and short summaries of these statutes. Say, for example, that you can rattle off the top of your head that "According to such-and-such a statute of the VA Code, open carry is legal" or that "According to such-and-such a statute of the VA Code, municipalities can not enact their own ordinances related to the carry, possession, etc., of guns" and so forth. You don't have to memorize all of the VA code, just salient ones you think you may need during a police stop.
Memorizing the relevant statutes accomplishes three things. One, concentrating on accurate recall of the statutes helps you keep a cool head (sort of like counting to ten). Second, a confident verbal listing of the VA code (with appropriate citations) is liable to rattle any LEO who is ignorant of the law and simply trying to throw his weight around. It encourages him/her to consider the possibility that you may know the law better than s/he does. Finally, memorization of selected statutes related to open carry encourages you (the gun owner) to KNOW the law -- inside and out, backwards and forwards. That can be useful when encountering LEO's, but it will also allow you to educate fellow citizens about their rights under the law. So, when a fellow citizen asks you why you carry a gun, one possible response might be: "Well, Sir/Ma'am, according to the VA Constitution (Article such-and-such), it is my right to do so. According to the VA Legal Code, statute such-and-such, this constitutional right is protected under the law." You portray yourself (and, by extension, other carriers) as polite and knowledgeable.
Thoughts?
Someone made the point that carrying a piece of paper with the relevant laws would be a waste of time -- it will merely irritate the LEO. This is a valid point, methinks.
A better suggestion is not only to carry the statutes with you, but also to memorize the citations of selected statutes relating to open carry and short summaries of these statutes. Say, for example, that you can rattle off the top of your head that "According to such-and-such a statute of the VA Code, open carry is legal" or that "According to such-and-such a statute of the VA Code, municipalities can not enact their own ordinances related to the carry, possession, etc., of guns" and so forth. You don't have to memorize all of the VA code, just salient ones you think you may need during a police stop.
Memorizing the relevant statutes accomplishes three things. One, concentrating on accurate recall of the statutes helps you keep a cool head (sort of like counting to ten). Second, a confident verbal listing of the VA code (with appropriate citations) is liable to rattle any LEO who is ignorant of the law and simply trying to throw his weight around. It encourages him/her to consider the possibility that you may know the law better than s/he does. Finally, memorization of selected statutes related to open carry encourages you (the gun owner) to KNOW the law -- inside and out, backwards and forwards. That can be useful when encountering LEO's, but it will also allow you to educate fellow citizens about their rights under the law. So, when a fellow citizen asks you why you carry a gun, one possible response might be: "Well, Sir/Ma'am, according to the VA Constitution (Article such-and-such), it is my right to do so. According to the VA Legal Code, statute such-and-such, this constitutional right is protected under the law." You portray yourself (and, by extension, other carriers) as polite and knowledgeable.
Thoughts?
gunsmith
member
I've opened carried here in Reno
most folks never noticed, one gal from CA asked me
if I was a cop and I replied with a question "why, is someone breaking the law"?
But enough about my heroic exploits, Foreign Dude...thats a pretty good idea.
In my case, that would keep me indoors for weeks trying to memorize all that stuff.
In my case I was going to tell the cop that was harassing me that NV is silent on ccw notification, but I didn't want him to find something else to bug me with.
most folks never noticed, one gal from CA asked me
if I was a cop and I replied with a question "why, is someone breaking the law"?
But enough about my heroic exploits, Foreign Dude...thats a pretty good idea.
In my case, that would keep me indoors for weeks trying to memorize all that stuff.
In my case I was going to tell the cop that was harassing me that NV is silent on ccw notification, but I didn't want him to find something else to bug me with.
tinygnat219
Member
Simple,
If harassed, don't say ANYTHING until you can speak to an attorney. The less reaction a cop can get out of you the better for your case later on. You do have the right to remain silent, it's up to you to use it.
If harassed, don't say ANYTHING until you can speak to an attorney. The less reaction a cop can get out of you the better for your case later on. You do have the right to remain silent, it's up to you to use it.
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